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2012/06/12 21:23:42
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
The unmasking of internet trolls: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
By James Slack
PUBLISHED: 00:56 GMT, 12 June 2012 | UPDATED: 11:43 GMT, 12 June 2012
Comments (80) Share
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Justice Secretary Ken Clarke wants to strip away the cloak of anonymity which shields website users who peddle lies and vicious smears
Cowardly internet ‘trolls’ who post vile abuse on Facebook and Twitter will be identified to their victims under laws unveiled today.
Justice Secretary Ken Clarke wants to strip away the cloak of anonymity which shields website users who peddle lies and vicious smears.
Internet companies will be expected to agree to rules over how to deal with libellous comments posted on their sites.
They will be told that – provided they agree to hand over the identity of the abuser to their victim – the internet company itself will be protected from legal action by the victim of abuse.
If they refuse, however, they could be hauled before the courts and fined thousands of pounds for the hateful comments, even though they were made by a visitor to their website.
Officials believe the prospect of protection from a defamation case will be enough of a ‘carrot’ for the likes of Twitter and Facebook to agree to the new regime.
It will finally help to bring to an end the injustice of victims being subject to sickening online abuse – often from those they have never met – with little chance of finding out who is responsible.
In future, they will be able to use the names and email addresses of their tormentors to bring a prosecution for libel.
There have been a string of cases of ‘trolls’ posting lies – such as making accusations of paedophilia – on social networking sites.
Last night, Mr Clarke said: ‘As the law stands, individuals can be the subject of scurrilous rumour and allegation on the web with little meaningful remedy against the person responsible.
‘Website operators are in principle liable as publishers for everything that appears on their sites, even though the content is often determined by users.
‘But most operators are not in a position to know whether the material posted is defamatory or not and very often, faced with a complaint, they will immediately remove material.
Officials believe the prospect of protection from a defamation case will be enough of a 'carrot' for the likes of Twitter and Facebook to agree to the new regime
‘Our proposed approach will mean that website operators have a defence against libel as long as they identify the authors of allegedly defamatory material when requested to do so by a complainant.’
The proposals are included in the Defamation Bill, which will be debated by MPs today.
The new powers will be balanced by proposals to stop people falsely claiming critical articles are defamatory simply to get them removed.
A one-year time limit is also being introduced to stop old articles triggering new libel claims.
Another of the issues facing the new legislation is how to identify internet users who leave abuse by using a shared computer, such as in an internet cafe.
Last week, a mother who was sent death threats by so-called internet ‘trolls’ won a landmark legal case against Facebook.
Nicola Brookes was tormented for months by anonymous bullies after she left an innocent message of support for an X Factor contestant on the social networking site.
She went to police to make a complaint but claimed officers told her to go home. But the 45-year-old refused to give up and, on Friday, won a court order forcing Facebook to identify the identities of the trolls. She now hopes to bring a private prosecution against them.
The benefit of the planned law change is that a victim will no longer have to spend large sums of money dragging the case to court.
Enlarge
Instead, they will be able to obtain their accuser’s identity direct from the website hosting their remarks. An internet company that refuses to co-operate can still be dragged to court to reveal the details. In the case of Mrs Brookes, the information disclosed included the bullies’ names, email addresses and their computers’ internet protocol addresses, which can be used to determine a computer’s location.
Mr Clarke said: ‘The Government wants a libel regime for the internet that makes it possible for people to protect their reputations but also ensures information online can’t be easily censored by casual threats of litigation against website operators.
‘It will be very important to ensure that these measures do not inadvertently expose genuine whistleblowers, and we are committed to getting the detail right to minimise this risk.’
The overall aim of the Defamation Bill is to end ‘libel tourism’ and protect free speech. In recent years London has become the libel capital of the world.
Critics say this is because regulations favour claimants and that the very high costs involved in defending a claim mean many publications are forced to settle out of court, even when they believe what they published was true.
In an attempt to end trivial claims, future claimants will have to show that material has caused them ‘serious harm’. And those from outside the EU will face new hurdles before they can bring a claim in London.
Journalists will also be allowed a defence against defamation where they can show the material is in the public interest.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/06/12 21:30:38
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
"In the case of Mrs Brookes, the information disclosed included the bullies’ names, email addresses and their computers’ internet protocol addresses, which can be used to determine a computer’s location. "
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/06/12 21:39:33
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
The new powers will be balanced by proposals to stop people falsely claiming critical articles are defamatory simply to get them removed.
I wonder how they will actually be able to achieve that, or get people who use public machines, or are able to disguise their IP address. Or people who have providers that assign IP addresses, meaning your IP address could have been used by others, which is why piracy claims don't stack up very well and there are examples of innocent people receiving letters demanding money.
It's nice of the government to do this *before* overhauling the libel laws in this country which are outrageously stacked against people making a genuine critique. Already the threat of libel action gags people making genuine comment (see the Simon Singh case) so to push these powers against website owners is giving the rich the power to reach ever further to gag fair comment. Why else is the UK a target for libel tourism?
No matter how spurious or malicious the intent of the libel threat, no website owner is going to risk themselves to maintain the anonymity of one of their users because libel cases are so hugely expensive. So if someone doesn't like something you said, they presumably can make a threat and secure your details and threaten you to retract it or face worse.
2012/06/12 22:15:11
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Howard A Treesong wrote:
I wonder how they will actually be able to achieve that, or get people who use public machines, or are able to disguise their IP address. Or people who have providers that assign IP addresses, meaning your IP address could have been used by others, which is why piracy claims don't stack up very well and there are examples of innocent people receiving letters demanding money.
They won't be able to. This is a case of lawyers/politicians being incapable of figuring out the repercussion of their legislation, because they know next to nothing about the medium they are trying to regulate.
No matter how spurious or malicious the intent of the libel threat, no website owner is going to risk themselves to maintain the anonymity of one of their users because libel cases are so hugely expensive. So if someone doesn't like something you said, they presumably can make a threat and secure your details and threaten you to retract it or face worse.
Personnally, I think the websites won't risk crashing down over the resulting raids, once it has become known they have shared the information of their posters... I'm pretty sure Moot won't bother with what some court on another continent said...
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2012/06/12 22:21:37
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Frazzled wrote:"In the case of Mrs Brookes, the information disclosed included the bullies’ names, email addresses and their computers’ internet protocol addresses, which can be used to determine a computer’s location. "
All they can get is the information a user allows them to get. Someone providing false details and hiding behind proxy servers is immune to this law.
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"
2012/06/12 22:44:47
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Frazzled wrote:"In the case of Mrs Brookes, the information disclosed included the bullies’ names, email addresses and their computers’ internet protocol addresses, which can be used to determine a computer’s location. "
All they can get is the information a user allows them to get. Someone providing false details and hiding behind proxy servers is immune to this law.
Plus, the second you hear about a subpeona, just bring your computer to a comp store and ask for it to be wiped ; you can now use the excuse ''Oh well I was hacked a few weeks ago''. All that hard legal work trumped by 25 seconds of actually thinking about stuff...
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2012/06/12 22:51:16
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Kovnik you sound very silly right now. Just saying. You realize that data can be recovered after deletion, and that tampering with evidence is just another charge to be tacked on if someone did the thing you just mentioned, yes? Also, proxy servers and Internet voodoo don't make you immune to investigation. Ask the guys at lulzsec.
Again the crack legal team in Dakka's OT forum decide that since a law isn't perfect it is stupid.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/12 22:52:46
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate.
2012/06/12 22:51:33
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Frazzled wrote:"In the case of Mrs Brookes, the information disclosed included the bullies’ names, email addresses and their computers’ internet protocol addresses, which can be used to determine a computer’s location. "
It is trivially easy to get a fake IP address, I use something called Tor to do just that on a regular basis. Fake email addresses are also easy to set up
Basically this is a law that will do little more than grab headlines for a while and catch the clueless but in the long run will do little.
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
2012/06/12 22:54:03
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Frazzled wrote:"In the case of Mrs Brookes, the information disclosed included the bullies’ names, email addresses and their computers’ internet protocol addresses, which can be used to determine a computer’s location. "
Twitter doesn't require a name, and email addresses can be made for free any time of the day. This is why I hate having old white dudes make up laws concerning the internet. If you're going to regulate something then get someone who knows about the subject to help you. Otherwise you look like an idiot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/12 22:59:01
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/06/12 22:57:14
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Monster Rain wrote:Kovnik you sound very silly right now. Just saying. You realize that data can be recovered after deletion, and that tampering with evidence is just another charge to be tacked on if someone did the thing you just mentioned, yes?
Again the crack legal team in Dakka's OT forum decide that since a law isn't perfect it is stupid.
Data can be recovered from areas of the hard disc that hasn't been refiled afterward. At best, re-download 1 terabyte of music from piratebay, and you'll have covered your tracks. At worst ; magnets.
Even better ; say you let one of your friend on your computer.
And yes, Laws are often passed on even though ways to abuse them are easily apparent to the general users of the system to be regulated.
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2028/03/05 22:58:49
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Monster Rain wrote:Kovnik you sound very silly right now. Just saying. You realize that data can be recovered after deletion, and that tampering with evidence is just another charge to be tacked on if someone did the thing you just mentioned, yes? Also, proxy servers and Internet voodoo don't make you immune to investigation. Ask the guys at lulzsec.
Again the crack legal team in Dakka's OT forum decide that since a law isn't perfect it is stupid.
It's not particularly difficult to wipe a drive past the point of data recovery. A seven pass overwrite will make any recovery virtually impossible and that can be done anywhere. You also can't tamper with evidence if it's still in your home since it's not evidence until it's part of an investigation. At that point you'll probably have a hard time wiping it since it won't be yours anymore.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/06/12 22:59:23
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Monster Rain wrote:Kovnik you sound very silly right now. Just saying. You realize that data can be recovered after deletion, and that tampering with evidence is just another charge to be tacked on if someone did the thing you just mentioned, yes?
Again the crack legal team in Dakka's OT forum decide that since a law isn't perfect it is stupid.
Data can be recovered from areas of the hard disc that hasn't been refiled afterward. At best, re-download 1 terabyte of music from piratebay, and you'll have covered your tracks. At worst ; magnets.
Even better ; say you let one of your friend on your computer.
And yes, Laws are often passed on even though ways to abuse them are easily apparent to the general users of the system to be regulated.
Magnets aren't actually that great at data removal. They'll corrupt the drive badly, but you have to be pretty damn thorough to actually make recovery impossible that way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kovnik Obama wrote:
Palindrome wrote:It is trivially easy to get a fake IP address, I use something called Tor to do just that on a regular basis.
I would be more wary in mentionning the use of Tor... Some people know what it's primarily used for, and they might get the wrong idea...
The exact same stuff every other IP spoofer is for..?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/12 23:01:45
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/06/12 23:02:20
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Palindrome wrote:It is trivially easy to get a fake IP address, I use something called Tor to do just that on a regular basis.
I would be more wary in mentionning the use of Tor... Some people know what it's primarily used for, and they might get the wrong idea...
What is it primarily used for?
If its for something to do with buccaneers due to my ISP caving to government pressure then, yes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/12 23:03:42
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
2012/06/12 23:02:47
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Monster Rain wrote:Kovnik you sound very silly right now. Just saying. You realize that data can be recovered after deletion, and that tampering with evidence is just another charge to be tacked on if someone did the thing you just mentioned, yes?
Again the crack legal team in Dakka's OT forum decide that since a law isn't perfect it is stupid.
Data can be recovered from areas of the hard disc that hasn't been refiled afterward. At best, re-download 1 terabyte of music from piratebay, and you'll have covered your tracks. At worst ; magnets.
Even better ; say you let one of your friend on your computer.
And yes, Laws are often passed on even though ways to abuse them are easily apparent to the general users of the system to be regulated.
Magnets aren't actually that great at data removal. They'll corrupt the drive badly, but you have to be pretty damn thorough to actually make recovery impossible that way.
Cool to know (although I wasn't planning on doing that anytime soon), thanks! Since you might know much more than me, was what I said correct? My friend whose a programmer told me you only really 'erase' data when you register something afterwards on the same location of the disc (so basically, trashing a file only marks that area of the disc as available to be rewritten).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Palindrome wrote:
Kovnik Obama wrote:
Palindrome wrote:It is trivially easy to get a fake IP address, I use something called Tor to do just that on a regular basis.
I would be more wary in mentionning the use of Tor... Some people know what it's primarily used for, and they might get the wrong idea...
What is it primarily used for?
If its for something to do with buccaneers due to my ISP caving to government pressure then, yes.
Child pornography, Silk Road requests, etc... Basically, access to the Onion network...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/12 23:08:24
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2012/06/12 23:08:43
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Pirate bay is my reason, Virgin Media has decided to block it. rather ineffectually as it turns out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/12 23:09:50
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
2012/06/12 23:11:23
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Cool to know (although I wasn't planning on doing that anytime soon), thanks! Since you might know much more than me, was what I said correct? My friend whose a programmer told me you only really 'erase' data when you register something afterwards on the same location of the disc (so basically, trashing a file only marks that area of the disc as available to be rewritten).
It's true, but you have to do it at least twice to make recovery actually impossible and an operating system often doesn't have access to certain portions of it's own drive when overwriting itself so it's best to use a piece of software purpose built for the task. The data recovery industry tends to puff its chest a lot but it's capabilities do have a distinct end.
Child pornography, Silk Road requests, etc...
That is not what tor is primarily used for. It's likely on there, but primarily implies a level of usage that somehow beats 'pirating Game of Thrones'.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/06/12 23:19:14
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
ShumaGorath wrote:That is not what tor is primarily used for. It's likely on there, but primarily implies a level of usage that somehow beats 'pirating Game of Thrones'.
Oh well, honestly I'll be happy if I got the wrong impression of it. Hum. Should I have something similar to download torrents?
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2012/06/12 23:20:36
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
ShumaGorath wrote:That is not what tor is primarily used for. It's likely on there, but primarily implies a level of usage that somehow beats 'pirating Game of Thrones'.
Oh well, honestly I'll be happy if I got the wrong impression of it. Hum. Should I have something similar to download torrents?
In compliance with the terms of dakka I do not give suggestions about how or where to torrent things.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/06/13 01:00:56
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
I'm old school. Hammer and a little GnR to get the blood going should be just the thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/13 01:01:10
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/06/13 02:12:58
Subject: New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Frazzled wrote:"In the case of Mrs Brookes, the information disclosed included the bullies’ names, email addresses and their computers’ internet protocol addresses, which can be used to determine a computer’s location. "
All they can get is the information a user allows them to get. Someone providing false details and hiding behind proxy servers is immune to this law.
Personally, I (sensibly) refuse to give out personally identifiable information on social websites (including Dakka) or connect my social websites to sites which would have my real name (including having two accounts on a site if necessary), and view all but the most trusted sites (such as Dakka) through a proxy...
And yet despite this I would still have no intention of blatantly defying this law. But what exactly would they do when given a fake email address with fake names/address, an IP address from a proxy, and so on and so forth? Is the government gonna try to bully companies in to revealing information?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/13 02:22:01
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/06/13 02:32:49
Subject: Re:New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.
2012/06/13 02:46:06
Subject: Re:New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
Nonsense law. People should have learned how to tolerate different opinions and harsh language in Middle School.
Bad parenting prevails. Free speech will be stymied, new obscenity laws introduced, and there goes the entire fething internet.
You know what would work better than this law in contesting so-called "e-bullying?" Try saying sticks and stones and turning off the computer and going outside for a break. The people on the internet can't hurt you, they're trapped in this box and more than likely living in their parents' basement.
Reminds me of "dog curtains."
You know what they're trying to make the internet like. They're trying to make it stuffy, awkward, like when you're in school, or when your parents walk in the room, or when you're at work. Every day now will be like a nanny party or a garden club.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/13 02:50:04
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
2012/06/13 03:08:55
Subject: Re:New laws will make websites responsible for vile messages unless they reveal identities of bullies
I don't really understand this argument that because some people have the technical knowledge to hide their IP address and other such tracking elements, then any law applied to the community at large must be useless. The reality is that most people, and especially those dimwitted enough to spend their time stalking someone on the internet making mean comments, will not be able to take such precautions, and will likely be entirely unaware that they can be tracked.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Desert Hunters of Vior'la 
The Purge 
Iron Hands 
Adepts of Pestilence 
Tallaran Desert Raiders 
Grey Knight Teleport Assault Force
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Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.