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ok, I'm really new to IG and i was browsing the forum ( saw a bunch of really helpfull threads) and in most of the army lists i saw there were Voxes. in the comments i saw a lot of «voxes aren't useful in that situation» and stuff like that so that made me wonder...... when are they useful?

If there's already a post about this subject then i would be delighted if you could post a link.


Thanks in advance

Yours truly

Plasiu

Depends. If you have a MSU army with a dozen or so units, then it's a waste of points. But if you only have a few huge blobs, 5 points is a pretty good deal to gaurentee getting orders off.
They're also handy on PCSs. 5 points to make 4 meltaguns (probably) twin-linked? Yes please.

plasiu wrote: when are they useful?

Not really ever. Voxes went from being nearly useful back in 4th ed with the previous codex (when voxes helped with morale, and commissars were rare) to outright useless now.

Vets can't take orders when they're in a can, and they're not terribly likely to survive outside for very long. On those very rare instances when you're going to be ordering them about, their Ld is high enough to make them pass it most of the time anyways, and voxes only work when you fail.

Meanwhile, infantry platoons don't make quite as good of use of orders as vets, and, more importantly, they're all going to come with commissars. You don't often fail orders when a commissar is making sure that everyone is listening up (and, once again, voxes only work when you fail), and infantry platoons are durable enough to handle missing the occasional order without too much hassle.

Voxes, then, only work for low-leadership units that aren't in transports, that can actually do something with orders when they receive them. This leaves basically two units - special weapon squads and heavy weapon squads - which are practically the only regular guard infantry units that CAN'T take a vox caster to benefit from a vox net.

They weren't terribly well thought through when the codex was designed, and are one of the few truly broken (in a bad way) things about the current guard codex.

Vox - Useless. You need those points elsewhere and even if you have spare points, you need another upgrades on your CCS. And even if you buy vox, you will probably not use it in the battle...(either you dont need it or it gets killed)

I have tried them and they almost never worked. They are really not worth it. :(

I really like the look of voxes so i just use models with them but dont give the rule, but as others have said, with the current rules and frequency of comissars in blobs, you dont really need them and it would probably be better to use those points elsewhere

Voxes, as has been said, are generally not worth their points. If you find yourself with the points to spare on a IS, get the sgt meltabombs, they are way more useful.

likewise, if you have any weapon slots open, there are a few that cost only 5 points. Not, you know, GOOD ones, but it's better to throw in a flamer for insurance than a vox caster you'll never use.

But of course, that's part of the problem with a vox caster - it isn't a stand-alone upgrade. You need to spend at least 10 points, and by the time you're done, you're likely spending more like 20-30 points. That many points has a lot of possible uses in a guard codex. Heck, it's halfway to marbo...

Another downside is that vox just does not come with new guardsman. You have to plug the thing on one of the generals retinue. General only has 4 men, so every body is important and there is not a place for vox in there.

Would the vox be an upgrade which comes with EXTRA guardsman, I would probably use it.

Ailaros wrote:likewise, if you have any weapon slots open, there are a few that cost only 5 points. Not, you know, GOOD ones, but it's better to throw in a flamer for insurance than a vox caster you'll never use.

But of course, that's part of the problem with a vox caster - it isn't a stand-alone upgrade. You need to spend at least 10 points, and by the time you're done, you're likely spending more like 20-30 points. That many points has a lot of possible uses in a guard codex. Heck, it's halfway to marbo...

voxes on PCSs and CCSs will actually save you points, depending on what set-up they are. If they're running plasmas, they'll save you 10 points, meltas 5 points. Of course, you're also one special weapon down...

Testify wrote:

Ailaros wrote:likewise, if you have any weapon slots open, there are a few that cost only 5 points. Not, you know, GOOD ones, but it's better to throw in a flamer for insurance than a vox caster you'll never use.

But of course, that's part of the problem with a vox caster - it isn't a stand-alone upgrade. You need to spend at least 10 points, and by the time you're done, you're likely spending more like 20-30 points. That many points has a lot of possible uses in a guard codex. Heck, it's halfway to marbo...

voxes on PCSs and CCSs will actually save you points, depending on what set-up they are. If they're running plasmas, they'll save you 10 points, meltas 5 points. Of course, you're also one special weapon down...

By losing that slot for the Plasma/Melta, I'd say it cost me more than it saved me.

alarmingrick wrote:

Testify wrote:

Ailaros wrote:likewise, if you have any weapon slots open, there are a few that cost only 5 points. Not, you know, GOOD ones, but it's better to throw in a flamer for insurance than a vox caster you'll never use.

But of course, that's part of the problem with a vox caster - it isn't a stand-alone upgrade. You need to spend at least 10 points, and by the time you're done, you're likely spending more like 20-30 points. That many points has a lot of possible uses in a guard codex. Heck, it's halfway to marbo...

voxes on PCSs and CCSs will actually save you points, depending on what set-up they are. If they're running plasmas, they'll save you 10 points, meltas 5 points. Of course, you're also one special weapon down...

By losing that slot for the Plasma/Melta, I'd say it cost me more than it saved me.

Can some one run the numbers on this? I don't know the IG codex nearly as well as others but I'm just curios if that investment to get orders off results in more reliable firepower then the one plasma/melta shot.

Seeing that I run Mech Guard, there's a 100% I will find the 5 points a waste on a Vox.

Even with bs4 (CCS and Vets), that extra shot will be a better investment, IMHO.

Ailaros wrote:special weapon squads and heavy weapon squads - which are practically the only regular guard infantry units that CAN'T take a vox caster

This is the big problem I have. My CCS is normally sat with x2 heavy weapon squads. They can't have a vox, nor can they get a Leadership boost (I take a Lord Commissar but he's often elsewhere).

They're really not well thought out. I mean the radius for orders is 6"/12" which is what? Shouting distance? Is my commander really shouting at a squad to pick up the phone?

If they extended the range that orders could be given (unlimited sounds about right) they'd be better. If they could be taken along side other equipment they'd be better still (like the Ork Boss Pole). After all the latest models it's a backpack and helmet mic.

They're really not well thought out. I mean the radius for orders is 6"/12" which is what? Shouting distance? Is my commander really shouting at a squad to pick up the phone?

Well played.

Right, which is why the old vox set made more sense. Back in the day, officers had the new lord commissar's aura of discipline for free (instead of being able to use orders). Like said ability, it had a pretty short aura of effect. Being able to use your officer's leadership score instead of your own from anywhere on the board was a bigger deal.

The rerolling orders, as mentioned, doesn't make sense, and isn't that useful.

As for the numbers, a blob passes orders 83% of the time. With a vox, they pass it 86% of the time. All for points that could have been spent on some meltaguns or upgrading some worse heavy weapons to better ones, etc.

Would be awesome if a vox network allowed you to issue orders to any squad on the board, provided both parties have a vox in their squad.

That's how i've been using them. It must've been that way in 4th, and it was just common sense. I guess I never looked up what they did in 5th. Sad I own any now...

I used to be a big fan of the Vox-caster in 4th. The problem with them is to make sure they get any use, you need to take them almost everywhere.

The two main uses are vets which very, very rarely see any use from them and standard infantry which you can use them to give orders like 'get back in the fight'. The CCS generally gives a large enough bubble for you to catch any falling back units, infantry squads don't really benefit from most of the orders like BiD since they lack the high numbers of heavy weapons, and finally, the other orders arn't that powerful to warrent spending the points on for a slight increase in order success.

I had to scrap 15 guys with Vox casters. The idea was for me to set up a sort of morale grid where I could use my CCS to bolster the armies effectiveness (Which is really the job a CCS would do) But when you start adding them everywhere, you're spending points equal to the cost of another battletank or couple more units of infantry. You can catch falling back units pretty easily with voxes but the squads you're saving really arn't really worth it after they've been shot up.

I maintain a few voxes in my vet squads for the BiD order. I have a punchy plasma CCS which usually trucks around close by and its handy having a bit of extra insurance that I can go to ground and such for a vet unit with plasma. Again, they both ride around in a chimera so the vox doesn't see much use.

Ailaros wrote:As for the numbers, a blob passes orders 83% of the time. With a vox, they pass it 86% of the time. All for points that could have been spent on some meltaguns or upgrading some worse heavy weapons to better ones, etc.

No, they pass it 97.79% of the time. 83%+(0.83*17).
I honestly don't understand the hate. Would you rather 4 meltaguns, or 3 TL? For 5 points you can gaurantee it.
Or an outflanking blob can gaurentee fleet (assuming it has Al'Rahem).
Or your shooty blob can gaurentee FRFSRF.
I've honestly never regretted taking voxes, but I *have* regretted taking them when my order failed and those four meltaguns shot at the LR full of termies, most shots missing.
Voxes are instrumenal in reducing uncertainty in your list.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deceiver wrote:I used to be a big fan of the Vox-caster in 4th. The problem with them is to make sure they get any use, you need to take them almost everywhere.

With two blobs and two PCSs loaded with special weapons, you need 5. One for the CCS, one for each PCS, one for each blob. 25 points to gaurentee twin-link, or make MEQs re-roll those pesky cover saves.

Testify wrote:

Ailaros wrote:As for the numbers, a blob passes orders 83% of the time. With a vox, they pass it 86% of the time. All for points that could have been spent on some meltaguns or upgrading some worse heavy weapons to better ones, etc.

No, they pass it 97.79% of the time. 83%+(0.83*17).
I honestly don't understand the hate. Would you rather 4 meltaguns, or 3 TL? For 5 points you can gaurantee it.
Or an outflanking blob can gaurentee fleet (assuming it has Al'Rahem).
Or your shooty blob can gaurentee FRFSRF.
I've honestly never regretted taking voxes, but I *have* regretted taking them when my order failed and those four meltaguns shot at the LR full of termies, most shots missing.
Voxes are instrumenal in reducing uncertainty in your list.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deceiver wrote:I used to be a big fan of the Vox-caster in 4th. The problem with them is to make sure they get any use, you need to take them almost everywhere.

With two blobs and two PCSs loaded with special weapons, you need 5. One for the CCS, one for each PCS, one for each blob. 25 points to gaurentee twin-link, or make MEQs re-roll those pesky cover saves.

That depends on whether you blob up though. I still have a vox in for a powerblob but my other two platoons are fielded normally. The individual squad doesn't really need them what so ever. They can't carry enough firepower to challenge a HWS for an order. Saving the unit after a fallback is still questionable as to been worth a vox. Generally its not. The power blobs do well with voxes if you can keep your CCS close enough but I don't equip mine with any real firepower. Just a flamer. Vets provide anti-tank as do the HWS. The vets are rarely close enough to the CCS to use them and even if they are, they'll 9/10 be mounted in a chimera.

The reason I keep a vox on my powerblob is to stop a 51-man unit from running away. The CCS will catch them before they fall back too far. I see no reason to put high strength weaponary in the hands of infantry squads for the sake of BID. Not when I can keep vets or HWS kicking around. Why waste a large blobs shooting on a few shots at a tank when you can use vets for the tank hunting and the blob can then charge?

By that, the use of the vox is limited in my list. I have 5. One for each of three vet squads which i'm still considering removing since they don't see any use (once out of about eight games) The fourth in the powerblob as a fallback insurance policy. The fifth in the CCS. I may end up with two in the coming days.

Testify wrote:Would you rather 4 meltaguns, or 3 TL? For 5 points you can gaurantee it.

It's the opportunity cost.

Yes, you are slightly more likely to pass the order with a vox, but you are already very likely to pass the order without a vox. 4 meltaguns that very often are twin linked is going to put out more firepower way, way more often than 3 meltaguns that slightly more often twin link. Every time your squad passes its orders without a vox, you are paying the price for taking a vox (in points and slots). Meanwhile, the only time you're paying the price for not having a vox is when you don't pass orders the first time, and you DO pass orders the second time. This isn't very often.

It's the same problem with other unpopular upgrades. For example, for all the same problems with a vox, except for 25 points more, you could take a medic. It turns out, though, that an officer squad is less likely to be killed with a medic around, but its still very easy to kill an officer squad, medic or no. The only time the medic is worth taking is in that tiny fraction of times when your opponent doesn't straight up wipe you out, despite the medic, or when the medic isn't doing anything (because the squad isn't getting shot at, or only with guns that ignore FNP). Yes, the medic does make your squad slightly more survivable, but it's way, way not worth the cost.

It's true for krak grenades and medics and carapace and standards (most of the time), and it's true for voxes. Spending points and slots on things that only have a rare chance of being practically useful just aren't worth taking compared to spending those points on something that will be useful every game (like more guns).