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are Ogryns worth the points? they seem pretty darn awesome.

strength 5
toughness 5
3 attacks
4 attacks sergeant
Ripper Guns assault 3 with strength 5!

also have furious charge so 4 inititive on the charge and strength 6!

they also have 3 wounds each

NOPE.

Their biggest issue is their Leadership. Sure they're stubborn. They also have one of the lowest leadership values in the game making them relatively easy to break (when in previous editions they were damn near impossible to break). This is not good for a CC unit.

they also have a noticeable lack of power weapons, drastically reducing their killing power against a lot of the stuff you'd want to use them against, especially similar units in other books (e.g. Thunderwolf Cavalry, Tyranid Warriors, Paladins, etc)

spaceXjam wrote:are Ogryns worth the points? they seem pretty darn awesome.
also have furious charge so 4 inititive on the charge and strength 6!

Ogryns have a basic Initative of 2. So they will have I3 on charge with FC. And no, they don't worth the points. Not because they are so overwhelmingly crap, but because they are remarkably useless when compared to other options (well, compared to anything else than Storm Troopers).

Vaktathi wrote:NOPE.

Their biggest issue is their Leadership. Sure they're stubborn. They also have one of the lowest leadership values in the game making them relatively easy to break (when in previous editions they were damn near impossible to break). This is not good for a CC unit.

they also have a noticeable lack of power weapons, drastically reducing their killing power against a lot of the stuff you'd want to use them against, especially similar units in other books (e.g. Thunderwolf Cavalry, Tyranid Warriors, Paladins, etc)

IIRC their base initiative is 2, so it is 3 on the charge. Anyway, if you are willing to invest in a lord commissar they could work, just break him off from the unit before the assault since it is a 6" leadership bubble meaning he doesn't have to be in the unit to confer the leadership boost. Granted I would take rough riders before Ogryn, 21 str 5 I 5 power weapon attacks on the charge for 105 points? Hell yeah!

You have to build around them to make them worth while. As pointed out above, the low leadership value makes them fragile. I have tried numerous ways to use them, and found these two ways as the only viable use for them.

1. 10 man ogryn squad (high point games only). Use as a counter attack unit. Keep them behind a squad what has a commissar. If the infantry squad survives a round of combat, the Ogryn squad can come in and put a hurt on something.

2. 5 ogryns, Yarrick, in a Chimera. Have to realy equip the Chimera with extra armor, and a dozer blade. Have to be able to get the unit into close combat, the Chimera needs to not be hindered by terrain and a 2 on the damage table. Yarrick provides the high leadership and re-roll ability to hit in close combat. This is very important. Also, all 5 ogryns can shoot out of the chimera, they only take up 2 slots for transport capacity, not out of the hatch. Plus, being toughness 5, when the transport blows up, it is hard to kill them. If only Ogryns could get better armor saves.

I have had this set up in option 2 tear through squads of standard space marines over and over again. The down size is this is a huge point sink, but, it is fun and fluffy for my army. Will you see ogryns in competative builds, most likely not. It is your army, so, feel free to go use them. Most of the other advice you will recieve on this thread is that you should run infantry squads, max out melta/plasma. Run Manticores, Valks/Vendettas, and that anything outside of the standard "norm" is not worth it. I say, its your money, use it how you want. Oh, that is the third problem with ogryns, they are expensive to purchase.

AtoMaki wrote:

spaceXjam wrote:are Ogryns worth the points? they seem pretty darn awesome.
also have furious charge so 4 inititive on the charge and strength 6!

Ogryns have a basic Initative of 2. So they will have I3 on charge with FC. And no, they don't worth the points. Not because they are so overwhelmingly crap, but because they are remarkably useless when compared to other options (well, compared to anything else than Storm Troopers).

Don't understand the storm trooper hate, they actually make good MEQ hunters when backed up by other infantry. Their guns may only be str 3, but they can punch through power armour which both actually threatens MEQs and almost as importantly intimidates them. They are useful for funneling the enemy into a specific area since they want to avoid them as much as possible. Also they are useful for almost guaranteeing death to any vehicles by deepstriking with meltas for very little.

Buttons wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:NOPE.

Their biggest issue is their Leadership. Sure they're stubborn. They also have one of the lowest leadership values in the game making them relatively easy to break (when in previous editions they were damn near impossible to break). This is not good for a CC unit.

they also have a noticeable lack of power weapons, drastically reducing their killing power against a lot of the stuff you'd want to use them against, especially similar units in other books (e.g. Thunderwolf Cavalry, Tyranid Warriors, Paladins, etc)

IIRC their base initiative is 2, so it is 3 on the charge. Anyway, if you are willing to invest in a lord commissar they could work, just break him off from the unit before the assault since it is a 6" leadership bubble meaning he doesn't have to be in the unit to confer the leadership boost. Granted I would take rough riders before Ogryn, 21 str 5 I 5 power weapon attacks on the charge for 105 points? Hell yeah!

The problem is that the Commissar is very pricey just to provide Ld for one unit, and requires another unit to then join or he'll be on his own and easily killed through shooting or if he stays with the unit likely quickly picked out and killed.

Buttons wrote:
Don't understand the storm trooper hate, they actually make good MEQ hunters when backed up by other infantry. Their guns may only be str 3, but they can punch through power armour which both actually threatens MEQs and almost as importantly intimidates them. They are useful for funneling the enemy into a specific area since they want to avoid them as much as possible. Also they are useful for almost guaranteeing death to any vehicles by deepstriking with meltas for very little.

Stormtroopers aren't very good MEQ killers, in a shooting war with Space Marines, they trade casualties 1 for 1 pretty much, but the SM's are significantly better in CC and have better overall survivability along with better Ld, and have longer ranged basic guns and heavy weapons, while being the same cost. There's nothing ST's do that you can't get other units to do just as well, usually cheaper and at longer range, aside from a min/max'd melta DS unit.

hmm i seemed to have overlooked their leader ship.. its a shame they are REALLY awsome looking models :(

i think maybe a commissar would help though

i am a bit of noob sorry about stuffing up their Initiative

ALSO i ahve a noob question if ogryns have thoughness 5... does that mean power weapons dont isntakill them because arnt power weapons strength 9?

alsobecause they have 3 wounds if they do get hit by a power weapon instant death do they loose 1 wound or all 3?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also if you cant use ogryns what else do you take for CC in imperial guard? just rough riders? i hate the rough rider models :(

spaceXjam wrote:hmm i seemed to have overlooked their leader ship.. its a shame they are REALLY awsome looking models :(

i think maybe a commissar would help though

i am a bit of noob sorry about stuffing up their Initiative

ALSO i ahve a noob question if ogryns have thoughness 5... does that mean power weapons dont isntakill them because arnt power weapons strength 9?

alsobecause they have 3 wounds if they do get hit by a power weapon instant death do they loose 1 wound or all 3?

Power weapons don't inflict ID, they just ignore armor (in the ogryn's case, a measly 5+). A Powerfist can inflict ID, but only because usually its S is twice its targets T. Most powerfists will strike at S8, meaning they won't inflict ID on a T5 Ogryn.

Power weapons are just at the strength of the model wielding the weapon itself, just no armor saves alowed:

1. Space Marine with power weapon is strength 4
2. Imperail Guard Sgt with power weapon is strength 3

An ogryn just takes a single wound from the power weapon. Only strength 10 weapons (demolisher cannon) instant kill ogryns.

thanks for the clarification!

Just one. The only weapons that will instant death an ogryn are force weapons(see: Grey Knights) and strength 10 weapons. Or the Doom of Malantai. He won't actually instant death them, but it'll be funny to watch someone roll leadership 7 on 3d6.

edit: Ninja'd.

thanks!

I run a Creed/Kell List and i always thought about a squad of 10 outflanking.

The thing about ogryns that surprises other players is what actually happens. They know the stats, just are surprised by the results.

The other main problem with ogryns is what else is in the elite slot. Marbo, Psyker battle squad, Rough Riders, Ratlings, and Storm Troopers. Although I still place ogryns in the second slot of playability from the elite slot, not everyone else does.

spaceXjam wrote:are Ogryns worth the points? they seem pretty darn awesome.

strength 5
toughness 5
3 attacks
4 attacks sergeant
Ripper Guns assault 3 with strength 5!

also have furious charge so 4 inititive on the charge and strength 6!

they also have 3 wounds each

Low leadership is a bad thing, but I still love ogryns. What's not to love about a unit of big boneheaded morons with guns that make lots of noise? May not be the best competitive choice, but with good support and a decent transport they can bring the hurt to the enemies, or if held in reserve near objectives beat an enemy troop unit down off of an objective if necessary. On the charge rough riders will deal out more pain, but any smart player will make sure the rough riders cannot get a solid charge on any decent units, so I find that one to be a bit of a wash. Rough riders otherwise are just T3 IG like all the other IG. Having T5 can be a very useful thing unless you are facing a lot of heavy tank weapon fire. Anyone who has ogryn appear in the battle line is not going to be thinking, "Wow rough riders would have done much more damage to me" or thinking about their low leadership. They are going to be trying to figure out how to deal with a bunch of T5 3W monstrosities rampaging through their battle line.

Just the threat of them hitting the line will cause people to shoot at them often. I have a unit of *3* plague ogryns that causes so much panic that my opponents waste tons of fire on them. All they are, are ogryns with FNP. They have no special attacks, or anything really scary about them. They don't even have ranged attacks of any kind. I have yet to have them get into contact with the enemy, but they draw enough fire that the stuff I really need to get into contact does all the time. I am wondering if my opponents will finally figure this out and then let me see if they actually do *anything* in melee or not.

Skriker

They also make great Tarpits

They need a commisar like yarrik as most have said but they are far from not being worth their points. You want to compare them to storm troops? Lets see how good your storm troops are when a wagon shows up in your face or a ton of beserkers start tearing through your lines.
You can't compare them point for point in a vacuum to a veteran squad or a terminator.
I see too many IG armies (most actually) die the moment you get to their face and very few can actually stop you from doing so without extreme luck if any at all.
The current popular mentality is, if you got 300 more points, take more HWTs. More russes. More ranged units like its a freaking PC RTS game.
Yes, IG has very bad charge units but very good counter-charge units. Just because you can't go all waggghh or blood for the blood god on someone doesn't mean you should ignore all melee.

Let your 30-40 man blobs get charged and then countercharge with ogryns, your classic hammer and anvil combo.
You could also have a lord commisar nearby but not in combat so the ogryns are now Ld10 stubborn. Loose combat? Whatever, but ogryns are so scary on the charge that I have a hard time seeing them loose combat.

Personally I think people flying in space ship to go fight with bayonnets is slightly stupid, so I am going to avoid hth as much as possible with my army.

Bobthehero wrote:Personally I think people flying in space ship to go fight with bayonnets is slightly stupid, so I am going to avoid hth as much as possible with my army.

No offense but don't you play DKoK? Their whole ARMY is built around flying to distant enemy planets to go charge them with bayonets. Heck, they can field the strongest version of power blobs possible. 60 man power blobs with up to 12 powerfists in it and all hitting at WS 4(12 PF is if you decided to go nuts and throw in 6 commissars of course )

That said, I've heard they can do a gunline well too, so it may be no big deal.

As for me personally, I love the idea of them, and am currently working on trying to make them work for my army as well. I think they have potential, you just need to build a list around them and think about how they synergize with your force. Of course they suck when you try to shoehorn them into a normal list. If you include them in the game plan to begin with, they might do better. Still, I don't think we're going to see them winning Adepticon anytime soon

terranarc wrote:
The current popular mentality is, if you got 300 more points, take more HWTs. More russes. More ranged units like its a freaking PC RTS game.

Usually the additional ranged units do end up being a better use of points. For 300pts you can get two vet squads in two chimeras.

Let your 30-40 man blobs get charged and then countercharge with ogryns, your classic hammer and anvil combo.

Unless they near anninihlated that blob, pile in rules would make it basically impossible for the Ogryns to get in a counter-charge as there'd be so many guardsmen that'd have to pile into base contact at the end of contact such that the Ogryns would not be able to get base contact themselves.

You could also have a lord commisar nearby but not in combat so the ogryns are now Ld10 stubborn. Loose combat? Whatever, but ogryns are so scary on the charge that I have a hard time seeing them loose combat.

The Lord Commissar is relatively easily killed by weapons that otherwise don't get much use (a couple of rhino stormbolters can do it), and the issue isn't always necessarily combat, but shooting, it's not hard to kill an ogryn at range with a 5+sv, kill one or two and you've likely forced an Ld check.

Vaktathi wrote:

terranarc wrote:
The current popular mentality is, if you got 300 more points, take more HWTs. More russes. More ranged units like its a freaking PC RTS game.

Usually the additional ranged units do end up being a better use of points. For 300pts you can get two vet squads in two chimeras.

Your thought process is my point exactly. 2x more vet squads in chimeras can do exceptionally well against some lists but be useless against others. You'd be tabling draigowing but doing nothing more being a mosquito to a kan wall. The way I see it, you already have tons of anti-tank and flamers are more player-psychological than they are wound-dealing effective most of the time. Not knowing what you face, I'd rather fill a hole than just get more of something I already excel at. (Partly because you just can't leave home without vets in chimera so I'm kind of assuming you already have 2-4 of them)

Vaktathi wrote:

Let your 30-40 man blobs get charged and then countercharge withi ogryns, your classic hammer and anvil combo.

Unless they near anninihlated that blob, pile in rules would make it basically impossible for the Ogryns to get in a counter-charge as there'd be so many guardsmen that'd have to pile into base contact at the end of contact such that the Ogryns would not be able to get base contact themselves.

This is true, a giant blob could easily wrap around too much but that just means you might have to wait a turn, which gives you enough time to get the chimera into position anyway. I mean, you're playing as IG. If there's any melee going on, it's going to be on your half of the board, right in your face usually. I wouldn't expect to see an IG player meeting the enemy halfway for close combat.

Vaktathi wrote:

You could also have a lord commisar nearby but not in combat so the ogryns are now Ld10 stubborn. Loose combat? Whatever, but ogryns are so scary on the charge that I have a hard time seeing them loose combat.

The Lord Commissar s relatively easily killed by weapons that otherwise don't get much use (a couple of rhino stormbolters can do it), and the issue isn't always necessarily combat, but shooting, it's not hard to kill an ogryn at range with a 5+sv, kill one or two and you've likely forced an Ld check.

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:Personally I think people flying in space ship to go fight with bayonnets is slightly stupid, so I am going to avoid hth as much as possible with my army.

No offense but don't you play DKoK? Their whole ARMY is built around flying to distant enemy planets to go charge them with bayonets. Heck, they can field the strongest version of power blobs possible. 60 man power blobs with up to 12 powerfists in it and all hitting at WS 4(12 PF is if you decided to go nuts and throw in 6 commissars of course )

Yes, I am aware of that, but I am taking the artillery path of Krieg, with engineers and grenadiers as support, and a shooty blob or 2.

if i take a ten man squad of ogryns with a lord commisar and have creed using his tactical genius rule they have scouts and can depoly 12" from the enemy. if i get first turn i can charge..

how awsome does 41 strength 6 attacks sound along with the commisars 3 power weapon attacks. they do strike at initiative 3 though so alot of ME will be able to beat them to the fight... with tuffness 5 though nothing will be able to instak kill them in combat and seeing as they have 3 wounds each its going to take more than 15 successful wounds and failed 5+ to even half the squad.

sounds cool to me!

thanks for who posted about the commisar its a pretty awsome idea

Just watch out for Thunderwolves. With a Lord, you're looking at 11x S10 Thunderhamer attacks.

You're squad will go splat very fast.

They tend to do better defensively rather that offensively. They fit well into 1850-2000pt lists or higher, at the lower end they're a bit too much of a point sink unless the entire army is gonna sit on its but and shoot. I find they work well with a primaris psyker. They get a leadership bump and they can actually have decent firepower in combination with the primaris in shortrange conflicts.

Yes, ogryn are worth taking. Most people think they're overcosted when they're really just undervaluing them.

At their heart, ogryn are basically guardsmen (just do the math against various infantry targets), except that they do one thing that a foot horde seriously struggles with - force concentration. They put out a platoon (or two) of firepower and choppy power, but can do it on a much, much smaller footprint. Also, they get a lot more resilient per-point against a lot of stuff that eats infantry (what with having fewer models for blast weapons to hit, and having way higher toughness), and in exchange, they get a small class of things against which they're much more vulnerable (thunder hammers and vindicators come to mind).

There are only two real problems with ogryn. The first is, lacking upgrades, what they are good against is somewhat limited. Of course, having 7 S5/6 attacks per turn you charge means that they don't NEED upgrades as much, but they are still a unit that has gaps in its killing power, which means that they need to be supported by other units in your army moreso than most other stuff, especially in your troops slots.

The second is that, in order to do ogryn properly, you've got to spend at least 350 points on them (for 6 and a properly kitted lord commissar). This is no small chunk of points, which means that it's going to be hard to fit an effective ogryn squad in your army at less than 1850 points.

Properly supported, they are a unit that you will undoubtedly shock your opponents with how unexpectedly good they are, especially when you mutli-charge parking lots, charge into multi-wound T3 models (stupid seer council), take down monstrous creatures, and laugh off S4 attacks in close combat.

Everybody who hasn't played with ogryn (or hasn't done the math for them) underestimates them, often badly. I got more than one look of surprise on my oppponent's faces as my ogryn dismantled whole terminator squads and whole tac squads coming out with the same number of models they engaged with.

5 ogryns lord commie with pfist in a chimera? i think it would be good in a mech vet list at some point one of tour squads will get charged. Dakka them then counter charge i think this would be excellent against things like jump marines raptors stormboyz etc

As Ailaros put it, Ogryns are underestimated them. However, I do disagree with him in one point. Ogryns need to be put with Yarrick (get that extra re roll) and only use five in a Chimera. The first time you use this against your opponenet, they will always draw all fire on Yarrick and his Ogryn honor guard. That will keep your Demolishers, Basilisks, and any other heavy template weapon you desire alive for a turn or two.

There are only two real problems with ogryn. The first is, lacking upgrades, what they are good against is somewhat limited. Of course, having 7 S5/6 attacks per turn you charge means that they don't NEED upgrades as much, but they are still a unit that has gaps in its killing power, which means that they need to be supported by other units in your army moreso than most other stuff, especially in your troops slots.

Where do you get 7 from? 2 ogryn and a bonehead put out a combined total of 3/3/4 normally, with 4/4/5 on a charge, that's 13 attacks at least.

Unless your counting the assault 3 shotgun, which is S5. Hm, sorry if that was the case, just trying to figure things out a bit.