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Hey guys, i've been putting some thought into restarting my guard army lately and i know i want to have a couple platoons, one of them with Chenkov. And to help beef those platoons up, i wanted to choose either Straken or Creed, Straken for his AOE buff or Creed for his 24" command radius and "For the Honor of Cadia". I was just wondering what Dakka's guard players preferred and why? Any and all information would be deeply appreciated.

What point level are we talking?
I personally only use Marbo if I use any "name" character.
I feel they cost too much. I'd rather have a generic CCS
and an extra tank, 1-2 squads, etc...
That's just me though. If you are playing 2k or greater I feel
you have more "extra" points to play with.

Sorry for not being specific, but yes i was looking at the higher point levels.

I would rather have Straken. Mainly because when I look at Creed it seems he is better placed into lists having a lot of heavy weapon teams where his 24in order range is actually of use. He just doesn't seem like the kind of HQ you want to use with blobs. The whole honor of cadia thing seems nice, but Straken already gives you furious charge in his 12in bubble without the risk of failing a leadership and without the downside of being fearless. Why would you want your blob to be fearless when it is already stubborn (assuming you are taking commissars)? In addition to that Straken gives you some defense against enemy assaults with counter-attack. That is why I put my vote in for Straken if anything. Also are you taking a lot of conscripts? That is really the only reason I could see anyone taking Chenkov. That could be a handy tactic throwing a blob of conscripts in front to take on the enemy's assault, while your power blob sits behind and waits to charge or FRFSRF. In my recent experience though FRFSRF has been a lot more handy than trying to get the furious charge off with Straken (at least against certain units). You really only take Straken for the counter-attack. While the furious charge is nice sometimes, it is usually more effective to blind them with your flashlights and let them assault into you.

If you're only looking at buffing blobs, then straken is way, way better for this role. Straken gives more direct benefits and can easily bail out blobs from close combat. Creed is really expensive, and only has one ability for blobs, while the rest of its abilities are for non-blob units.

Straken is the efficient choice, then.

Straken is best if you really, really need one or two blobs/squads to have Furious Charge. Creed is better overall with his huge command radius.
Though both of them have the same huge disadvantage, being a very expensive and very fragile unit that can be easily singled out.

Thanks for all the advice guys. And yes Whitewall, i intend to take 2 platoons, each with a 20 man and 10 man infantry squad(or possibly a 20 or two 10's) as well as at least a blob of 20 conscripts, the larger with a lord commissar.

Why not blob the infantry squads? Cheaper and better. Much better, actually.

Which is why i said maybe, only reason i considered splitting them up was one for fire support, one for holding. Although conscripts will most likely be holding the objective or the enemy up.

On a side note, i will be naming my Chenkov Josef Kony .

Commisar Von Humps wrote: On a side note, i will be naming my Chenkov Josef Kony .

Pretty un-fething funny.

Depends, I run platoons purely as a fire base, nade launcher, HWT/HWS...Creed to me is worth it for the 4 orders and the 24in radius...
For power blobs, Straken, the counter attack is great, not to mention the furious charge...I mean come on what is scarier than even a 30 man unit with power weapons intermixed with around 60 attacks at str 4 init 4?

I haven't used Straken before but this thread is starting to make me think I should in one of my 2 CCSs (I am a powerblob player). I HAVE used Creed before and I can say that he is not worth it (gets blown off the board too easily even in cover and gone to ground) when you can add an additional CCS and upgrades for the cost of Creed, thus still giving you 4 orders. Creed still gives you much more coverage 24" inch radius of command (1,809.56 inches squared, of area coverage) versus two separate 12 inch radius bubbles (452.39 inches squared x 2). I still prefer having the flexibility and survivability of 2 CCSs.

I've often found that putting the CCS in a chimera boosts its survivability. That and there are generally scarier things on the table to take the brunt of my opponents AT. Also it will boost the effective range of Straken's 12in bubble since it would be measured from the chimera hull.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:I've often found that putting the CCS in a chimera boosts its survivability. That and there are generally scarier things on the table to take the brunt of my opponents AT. Also it will boost the effective range of Straken's 12in bubble since it would be measured from the chimera hull.

Measured from the hatch I believe so not really...

Straken is much better for agressive power blobs AND passive gun line blobs. Furious charge for power blobs, counter attack for gunlines. Plus he is quite good in CC against heavy infantry and vehicles (chainfist FTW).

Creed is great with his "tactical genius" ability. You can outflank a blob with him without the use of Al Rahem. He is also better when babysitting multiple HWT (although he needs LC or Kell to do that right).

Both are too costly and too fragile to be effective (savvy opponent will try to kill them right at the start of the battle) . But if you like them and want to play special characters (I do ) then I recommend Straken of those two. He can survive longer and his abilities are passive (he is easier to "use").

If you take Creed, I'd recommend a squadron of Leman Russ demolishers to outflank with the Tactical Genius rule. It's a meme which actually makes sense, especially funny in apocalypse.

riverhawks32 wrote:

WhiteWolf01 wrote:I've often found that putting the CCS in a chimera boosts its survivability. That and there are generally scarier things on the table to take the brunt of my opponents AT. Also it will boost the effective range of Straken's 12in bubble since it would be measured from the chimera hull.

Measured from the hatch I believe so not really...

Nope, it's measured from the hull.

Yep, from the hull. It's an aura, so it even works from a valkyrie or vendetta (which I find hilarious, I can just imagine him screaming at his troops from the loading ramp )

If you're looking at Creed for his outflanking ability, look at Al'Rahem. He outflanks an entire platoon and has some of the best orders guard can get. His "like the wind" order essentially gives guardsmen fleet, and can even let you fire a volley into an enemy force and move back as well. Only problem is he's 70pts... for a PCS commander. Once you add on meltaguns, the extra 30pts for the squad, and possibly a transport, he gets expensive really fast. Also, an astropath is MANDATORY for him, as it gets him in faster and makes him more likely to show up where he's needed. Just remember he splits your army in half essentially, so you need to build a list around him to be effective.

As for straken, he's awesome. I've watched him punch entire terminator squads to death by himself, and even seen him explode a manticore with his plasma pistol. His buffs are a great bonus for platoons, but don't rely on it. Like orders, think of it as a bonus, not a crutch to your strategy. If the only way you have to deal with something is requiring a CCS to be within 12" of a certain unit, you're begging for trouble. Straken's tough, but he's not invincible, and if your opponent figures out what you're up to, you'd be amazed just how much fire he'll attract.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Yep, from the hull. It's an aura, so it even works from a valkyrie or vendetta (which I find hilarious, I can just imagine him screaming at his troops from the loading ramp )

Which would be so cool, if only it were legal. The only way you can shoot orders out of a vehicle is with the Mobile Command Vehicle special rule, which only chimeras have.

Lothar wrote:Creed is great with his "tactical genius" ability. You can outflank a blob with him without the use of Al Rahem.

Just a tiny note with this. In order to outflank a blob with creed, you need to put the whole platoon in reserve, including the PCS. Perhaps not the biggest of costs, but it is a cost. Taken into account the lack of blissgiver, lack of being able to give BiD to the squad when it comes out of outflank way up the field, and extra cost of the character himself, al'rahem is still a better buy than creed here.

Honestly, if I were giving a blob scouts with creed, I'd actually start them on the table, and use their scout move to push them forward before the game started.

Everytime I do the points/benefit thing and leave Straken off my list I fully regret it. He usually gets his points back and makes the enemy alter their tactics. I've mocked my friend for veering his terminator squads away. While expensive, you can add bodyguards and a medic which gives the unit much more staying power. Remember he isn't an IC and wound allocation shenanigans can give him an extra turn or two. I've only had him ID'd once and that was after his retinue was killed off. While any dedicated death star can handle him, I don't know of any that want to. The look on other players faces when one of their units gets owned by guardsmen in CC is absolutely priceless. If he assaults stationary transport it's almost a guaranteed wreck. I'm considering giving up using Russes as I find my scatter dice scoff at me incessantly, the damn things are shaken or stunned the whole time as they are fire magnets, or the enemy is in cover the whole game and when I finally do get a hit or a low scatter, my opponent makes every cover save. Like I said, I don't know any unit that wants a plasma pistol, 3 or 4 melta guns firing on them with fire on my mark followed by an assault with 5 (base 3, +1 for two CC weapons +1 for attack) S7 (6 +1 for FC) counts as powerweapon attacks at WS 5 IIRC. He's only I4 on the charge but with a full retinue and a medic, I've never had him not swing back. Also my meta is very assault oriented, so I always get use out of him. Marbo is a one shot wonder who dies like a dog the next turn. I've had Straken get cursed out for an entire game. He dies a lot, but usually leaves something valuable smoldering in his path. YMMV.

I've used Creed once and he did okay. I ran a gunline and made full use of his orders. If I want to outflank I have Capt. Al or my vendettas. I would love to flank Rough Riders, but alas, he cannot give that ability to cavalry. I've toyed with the idea of having two CCS, one with Straken and one with Creed. But that gets uber expesive fast. It might be feasible in an all blob/HWT gunline at high points. But setting up all those models is a PITA.

If I had to pick one, Straken hands down.

Wow, thanks for all the help guys, i really do appreciate all the advice you guys have been able to give me and if it wasn't obvious, i am going with Straken at the higher (1850+) point levels.

Pick me, pick me, pick me.

-ironhandstraken

Straken makes everyone slightly better in combat whilst being a beast himself, but Creed obviously has the better tactical ability. I would take both. But with Platoons Creed may be better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Straken makes everyone slightly better in combat whilst being a beast himself, but Creed obviously has the better tactical ability. I would take both. But with Platoons Creed may be better.

I have been trying Creed & Kell out with my gun line, they are pretty amazing together in higher points games, like about 1750pts. The amount of orders and radius of his orders is awesome, it allows me to spread my guard out, so that templates and multiple charges are less of a worry.

In lower points games (1500pts and under) I have been trying out taking one or the other, they both work pretty well on their own.

The one biggest problem is that they are expensive getting the two of them with a CCS is over 200pts. And they are still only t3 guardsmen.

I found it funny that one of the only I4 guardsman has a power fist. Good ol Kell.

I personally would run Creed, seeing as I'm an order junkie. However nothing is better then seeing marines too scared to charge at guardsman, or even better Guardsmen swinging just as fast and hard as a marine.