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hi im a salamander player and i sometimes have real trouble against daemons. any ideas? heres what i have.
dreadnought -assualt cannon
devie squad - 3 lascannons and missle launcher
termintor assualt squad- only two hammers though
3 tac squads
10 man assualt squad led by captain with jumpack
vindicator
vulkan with command squad

Consider getting something that can screw with reserves and deep striking. Daemons hate anything that messes with their reserve rolls and deep striking ability. Hence I recommend getting a land raider and counting it as a proteus land raider, it's quite the middle finger to Daemon players.

TH/SS terminators in a LR with a Librarian and Vulkan is a good start. Then preference to flamer templates...

Or just a lot of shooting. Without regular saves, they are left with some pretty sad invulnerable saves for any attack. Just force a lot of saves, they will fail them after a bit.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Or just a lot of shooting. Without regular saves, they are left with some pretty sad invulnerable saves for any attack. Just force a lot of saves, they will fail them after a bit.

This is the right answer. A squad of 3 HB attack bikes (15 shots at 12" or less with a ton of mobility) go a long towards thinning out daemon packs (average 6.5 wounds before saves against T4). A Librarian with Null Zone is also an amazing benefit and worth including in a take all comers force for his utility against SS wielding terminators.

Remove vulkan, get a null zone libby.

Good grief, a C:SM player complaining about daemons. Null zone, you fool, Null zone!
TH/SS terminators can belt down daemon MC's hard. Lesser daemons not so much, bloodletters and daemonettes swarm them with mass attacks+rending/attacks+power weapons. Horrors and plague bearers will get murder by them too.
Avoid CC at all costs- Daemons are the best in CC hands down, provided they get there. Winning against daemons is making them not get there. You've already got a slight advantage with their whole army being forced to deepstrike. You need to position your units to avoid assaults, prolong the daemons from charging, pick off priority targets.

As a small note- Your dreadnought is utterly useless against any MC except for shooting. As a daemon player, MC's are sent to kill dreds. I punch before you, I punch more than you, and I punch with 2d6 penetration at S6 or higher, I will win this punching contest almost every time (hey, rolling a bunch of ones does happen ) Your dread in CC with an MC = a dead dread.
That being said, your dread in CC with any lesser daemons=win. Bloodletter champions can rend you, but theres only one per squad. Horrors and plagues are impotent against dreads in melee. daemonettes can only glance, if they rend THEN roll a 5 or 6. Bloodcrusher champions can rend you, again its only one in the squad. The only lessers you don't want to charge is fiends- they can all rend you to bits, and they have hit and run so you cannot tarpit them.
So, CC rules for dreads when fighting daemons-
MC's =no no
Fiends= why bother, they will just hit and run. Assault the last remainding fiend to try and kill it, but not a whole squad
Lesser daemons= All your superior CC ability is wasted on my dread. Win!

Hi guys well i tried what you said and assualted a 10 man
plaguebearer squad with the dread and slaughtered them then daemonettes
charged the dread and with 60 attacks all he did was shake my
dread lol we didnt finish the game but i was winning

Null zone and force him to roll more dice for his saves, if you couldn't figure this out then you need to re-evaluate your understanding of your army, since you don't know it.

redrooster148 wrote:hi im a salamander player and i sometimes have real trouble against daemons. any ideas? heres what i have.
dreadnought -assualt cannon
devie squad - 3 lascannons and missle launcher
termintor assualt squad- only two hammers though
3 tac squads
10 man assualt squad led by captain with jumpack
vindicator
vulkan with command squad

Play a good list and you should auto win against daemons, they really are quite poor.

Some pretty poor choices in your army, you trade tons of quality shooting for some poor shooting and wretchedly bad assault ability.

2 HQs in vanilla is 1 HQ too many. The fact you have a command squad in a non biker list is also poor. Captains for marines are for making bike armies, not because they are any good (In fact, captains are pretty terrible). Vulcan does not compute for this list. Lack of melta/flamers/TH means that the reason taking the guy just doesn't exist in this list. Run a null zone librarian for the most efficient and effective vanilla choice. In fact never go without a null zone librarian. EVER. Its almost the entire reason why vanilla is even viable after all these years, the lack of such means you should probably paint your guys red or gray blue.

Vindicators aren't particularly good, and solo ones are rather poor. Run 2-3 or run none. The reason why they are bad is they are single shot short range tanks with easy to hurt side and rear armor with 1 gun. .

Terminator Assault squads without a LR is to slow and vulnerable. Give them a LRC (or LRR if you prefer that for some reason or another) to ride in, or drop them from the list.

While some people say no the SM dev squads, I actually like them. But not how you are running them. Mixing weapons is normally bad, but with vanilla its fine to have 1 weapon different due to signum. Unfortunately you have the wrong singleton... 3 ML and 1 LC is the normal ratio. gives you frag/krak on 3 weapons and a boosted chance on the LC. Its also way cheaper than how you are running them. If you want LC in your list, give them to the tac squads, they are a much cheaper upgrade in those units.

vanilla assault marines are just bad. Unlike BA they are not troops, have no access to FNP, and don't have anywhere near the same special weapons/vehicles/movement options.

I like dreads, but that build you have there needs a HF, and you probably should run more than 1 dread if you run any. Redundancy is the key to success in 40k.

In summery you don't have enough shooting to kill daemons (the prefered method) and you don't have good enough assault to beat them at that (vanilla can't really out assault specialist assault armies).

Also, ignore any advice telling you to take HBs unless its on a pred or bolter scouts (an acquired taste I can't recommend for beginners). Any other platform they come on just doesn't make much sense. HBs have the illusion of RoF, but in reality they are extra shot extra strength bolt guns with the heavy rule. Except you pay way too much opportunity and points cost for them.

notabot187 wrote:
Also, ignore any advice telling you to take HBs unless its on a pred or bolter scouts (an acquired taste I can't recommend for beginners). Any other platform they come on just doesn't make much sense. HBs have the illusion of RoF, but in reality they are extra shot extra strength bolt guns with the heavy rule. Except you pay way too much opportunity and points cost for them.

Disagree here. I have used a 3 attack bike squad for years and achieved consistently good results. The trick is to use them for their strengths (primarily mobile ranged shooting). Heavy Bolters provide ST5 and AP4, which is great against a variety of opponents (Tau, Eldar, and IG are wounded on a 2+ and receive no save when caught in the open) and performs well against T4 with an AS of 4 or less (think Orcs). Against T4 and AS 3+, it is essentially the same as two plasma shots (0.86 kills from the heavy bolter against MEQ (cover irrelevant because the save is better), 1.14 kills in the open for plasma, 0.57 kills for plasma with cover against MEQs). The range of the HB and the 12 inch move allow them to quickly reposition to take advantage of opportunities where an opponents assault unit (i.e. Banshees) is caught in the open. The ability to launch assaults also helps them to contest objectives that are already occupied by the enemy and to finish off units reduced by shooting. T5 also makes them good at tarpitting enemy shooting units. They also retain the ability to turboboost 24 inches for last turn objective contesting.

ok well a few things id like to say.
1)my ten man assualt squad will be striking at inititive 10 in the new rules
2)my dread does have a heavy flamer
3)will change around devies
4)no use for vulkan ? every tac squad has a flamer, command squad has melta, dread has HF and the termies have two hammers

Spreading out and denying deployment. Using cover to your advantage and using tanks to cover your tactical squads from the infantry.