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To celebrate the end of 5th edition, My FLGS is having a 2500 tournament. Regulars include a DE (lots of vehicles), IG, SW, Nids (no worries here), other Necrons and nilla marines
Yes I know, this is a wierd gaming bunch, more armies without powerarmor than with.
What do you think of this list:

x2 Destroyer Lord with Warscythe, MSS, sw,and Tachyon Arrow (join wraiths)
3 Wraiths: 2 with whip coils, 1 basic
3 Wraiths: 2 with whip coils, 1 basic
9 Scarab swarms
Monolith
x2 Doomsday arks
x2 Triarch Stalker
C'Tan with Gaze of Death and Lord of Fire
x5 Immortals with guass
x5 Immortals with Tesla
x9 Warriors
x9 Warriors
x9 Warriors
x9 Warriors

I think you need some ghost arks or your warriors. Another idea is to remove one of the destroyer lords, put in an overlord and add his court with some RO, even if you have to get rid of some upgrades or units (I'm looking at the stalkers for that).

If you have the models, I'd suggest you drop one warrior squad and add more wraiths.

There's quite a few problems in this list, but they can be easily fixed.

The arrow is a waste of tiem on the D-Lord, too expensive and only single shot. Take weave so the Lord can take missile shots.

Not enough Wraiths, you need them to be at least 5 strong.

Doomsday Arks are pretty fail. They have hold position to fire, which can be a pain with terrain etc. A opponent can easily avoid them.

If a C'Tan is taken then you should take withering worldscape and dust. They are probably the best options available.

The D.E list at least will probably beat yours as you don't have a huge amount of anti tank and the Dark Eldar have superior range and movement.

oops, my bad. The Destroyer Lords do have sempiternal Weave, I just forgot to write it in there.
I know the tachyon arrow is probably a waste of points, but I had 60 extra points that I didn't know what to do with.

Agreed with the wraiths, I want more. I figured 4 wraiths and a D-Lord would be enough. I will get more, but I won't have them ready for this weekend's tournament. so I'm stuck with only 6 wraiths.

The C'Tan hides behind the monolith and Stalkers. to scare of potential meltas dropping in and for a counter attack. I have found his Gaze of death well worth his points. Going down to one wound, then earning them all back.

For the Doomsday arks, I have used before, didn't really like. For the same reasons. I thought the Stalkers/D-ark combo for twin linking would be pretty deadly. I typically play 2000 pts and use two Abarges instead, should I go back to that? and what do I use to fill those points?

For the DE, I was hoping I could glance everything of his to death. because opentopped, glance can still kill. Can I rely on glancing guass and two stalkers for my anti armor?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or choice two:
x2 Destroyer lords w/ warscythe, MSS, SW
3 Wraiths x2 with whip coils, x1 bare
3 Wraiths x2 with whip coils, x1 bare
10 scarab bases
Monolith
x2 Annihilation barges
C'tan: lord of fire, gaze of death
x2 Triarch Stalker with Heat Ray
x5 Immortals with guass
x5 Immortals with Tesla
x5 warriors in Ghost Ark
x5 Warriors in Ghost Ark
x12 Warriors
x13 Warriors

My worry with this list is that I won't have enough High S, Low ap shots that the Doomsday Arks would provide me.

Which one should I use? list 1 or 2?

I think the answer depends on how you are going to play the list.

I think your first list has a lot of good synergy. You have Stalkers to TL, DA and Lith for pie plates and a good meat shield. Even the Arrows have a greater chance of doing something with the Stalkers TL effect. I can see this list working well - it is a stand off and shoot list, with CC from the wraiths to protect the shooty elements.

I'm less keen on the second list with the AB. Without Crypteks/Lords the 12, 13 squad of warriors doesn't appeal to me at all, even with ghost ark support (I assume the GA would follow behind these blobs?). I think the trade to shorter range weapons significantly weakens the list.

Moronic Nonsense wrote:oops, my bad. The Destroyer Lords do have sempiternal Weave, I just forgot to write it in there.
I know the tachyon arrow is probably a waste of points, but I had 60 extra points that I didn't know what to do with.

Agreed with the wraiths, I want more. I figured 4 wraiths and a D-Lord would be enough. I will get more, but I won't have them ready for this weekend's tournament. so I'm stuck with only 6 wraiths.

The C'Tan hides behind the monolith and Stalkers. to scare of potential meltas dropping in and for a counter attack. I have found his Gaze of death well worth his points. Going down to one wound, then earning them all back.

For the Doomsday arks, I have used before, didn't really like. For the same reasons. I thought the Stalkers/D-ark combo for twin linking would be pretty deadly. I typically play 2000 pts and use two Abarges instead, should I go back to that? and what do I use to fill those points?

For the DE, I was hoping I could glance everything of his to death. because opentopped, glance can still kill. Can I rely on glancing guass and two stalkers for my anti armor?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or choice two:
x2 Destroyer lords w/ warscythe, MSS, SW
3 Wraiths x2 with whip coils, x1 bare
3 Wraiths x2 with whip coils, x1 bare
10 scarab bases
Monolith
x2 Annihilation barges
C'tan: lord of fire, gaze of death
x2 Triarch Stalker with Heat Ray
x5 Immortals with guass
x5 Immortals with Tesla
x5 warriors in Ghost Ark
x5 Warriors in Ghost Ark
x12 Warriors
x13 Warriors

My worry with this list is that I won't have enough High S, Low ap shots that the Doomsday Arks would provide me.

Which one should I use? list 1 or 2?

Yes, got back to double Annihilation Barges, they are just too good not to take. I tihnk the second list is better, I would combine the Wraiths into a single big ass unit of death, then later split the D-Lord for ass whooping. I would then ditch the Monolith as it's not really helping and instead get some Canoptek Spyders, who can make your Scarabs more deathly. The Scarabs can act as a second assault unit while the Spyders lumber behind and protect the Warrior blocks from counter assault. Now the C'Tan will be vulnerable, however, opponent's can still reposition to see the C'Tan anyway. Of course, you don't have to use the Nightbringer of Deceiver model, you could use something else i.e something smaller

Oh, and no you cannot rely on heat rays and gauss for armour only. Guass is handy, but don't expect loads of 6+ and the heat ray should always miss one shot on average, factor in the Venoms have flickerfield standard and may also get cover etc.

I like the responses. So far, I have one vote for each list

to address mercer: Monolith is in there so I can teleport a troop choice through the portal and onto an objective, this has worked multiple times and it keeps the warriors safe until they are ready. The C'Tan is in there as a counter assault, hidden behind the Monolith, he is completely out of LOS (I use the finecast nightbringer model)

2 Annihilation barges: agreed, they are great. But they don't mesh in this list. The Abarges are only good at infantry (no ap really hurts its' anti-tank capabilities). The first lists uses the Doomsday arks with the Stalkers twin-linked, these guys can bust tanks or destroy infantry.

Combine Wraiths: I don't like the all eggs in one basket approach. I find Wraiths not to be very deadly, but very resiliant, The Destroyer lord has to stay with them to give them a real punch in CC. The D-Lord also has no invul, so power weapons and such kill him, he needs to strike first and kill the power weapons before he dies, that is why he stays with whip coil wraiths.

So as it stands, I am leaning towards list one. Any more arguments or reasons why I should go with list two or make a whole new list?

See I wouldn't be bothered about the C'Tan in a assault sense. I would send a unit of meltas at the Monolith and hopefully make it go boom. Then the C'Tan is exposed to shooty death and you've lost your teleporting ability; two birds with one stone. If the melta unit gets smacked about by the C'Tan, who cares, they've done their job. I just think the Monolith is expensive for the points and the job it's doing in your list, and is the C'Tan really that helpful?

Annihilation Barges fit in most Necron lists. They are excellent at infantry as you say and tackling light armour and transport vehicles. It's true that no AP can be a issue, however with so many shots you can surpress a vehicle, if a vehicle is surpressed then it's not issue.

The Wraiths in a bigger unit means they will survive longer. If you combine them you will have a extremely resiliant unit and extremely deadly. They really don't need the D-Lord to give them punch, Wraiths have that already . The D-Lord can take a phase shifter can't he? He can still die in a unit of Wraiths if enemy models are positioned correctly (i.e not in base contact with Wraith models) On his own it's about picking your targets i.e units which can't fight back well or tackling annoying vehicles with the warscythe. Just avoid force weapons like the plague!

mercer wrote:The Wraiths in a bigger unit means they will survive longer. If you combine them you will have a extremely resiliant unit and extremely deadly. They really don't need the D-Lord to give them punch, Wraiths have that already . The D-Lord can take a phase shifter can't he? He can still die in a unit of Wraiths if enemy models are positioned correctly (i.e not in base contact with Wraith models) On his own it's about picking your targets i.e units which can't fight back well or tackling annoying vehicles with the warscythe. Just avoid force weapons like the plague!

Before you comment on the Destroyer lord, maybe you should read the codex.
No, he cannot take a phase shifter. He has no way of getting an invul save
He has everliving: So force weapon or power weapon, doesn't make a difference.
and positining in CC? you must put as many into base to base as possible, I keep my 2 coils up front with the D-Lord inbetween. The third wraith stays in the back of the squad, so unless you assault from behind, enemy will always be in b2b with a whip coil = D-lord goes first.
DLord does get MSS, which can stop one person from swinging, I try to postion him so the only guy he touches is the srgt, or whoever has the best weapon.

I think that wraiths are not that deadly. Resiliant, yes. They get a decent amount of attacks, but rending is not a reliable way to take anybody down.
Or maybe I'm wrong and they get a whole lot better if I take a full squad, but for now I only have 6. I will get two squads of 6 eventually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or, another idea!
Take out a Dlord and a wraith squad
bump up the size of the 1 wraith squad
Add an Olord on CCB
make minimal sized warrior squads
change the C'tan's powers to GoD and WW
throw some crypteks in
1 veiltek, 1 pulsetek, 3 tremorteks
bubblewrap the monolith/stalkers with the 6th warrior group

Could this work?

Not sure why you're so confident against Nids. 60 odd stealers could run through that list on their own (bar a monolith of course). I assume your opponent doesn't go heavy stealers?

I don't normally play 2,500 as it's a bit too crazy but it seems you are spending points on troops you don't really need as you've filled your other slots up already. Problem with DLord lists is not that they are bad units, but that without access to Royal Courts those troops are totally vulnerable and little threat to your opponent.

Confident against the Nids, even though he loves stealers, because he is not a good player. I've played him before and just ran through him.

Correct, I'm spending points on troops I don't need. They are only there to hold objectives. I typically hide my troops behind the wall of armor, then use the monolith to throw them forward to objectives.

but with my last suggestion, I could take out a Dlord and use a Olord on CCB to give me access to some crypteks what do you think of that?

Moronic Nonsense wrote:

mercer wrote:The Wraiths in a bigger unit means they will survive longer. If you combine them you will have a extremely resiliant unit and extremely deadly. They really don't need the D-Lord to give them punch, Wraiths have that already . The D-Lord can take a phase shifter can't he? He can still die in a unit of Wraiths if enemy models are positioned correctly (i.e not in base contact with Wraith models) On his own it's about picking your targets i.e units which can't fight back well or tackling annoying vehicles with the warscythe. Just avoid force weapons like the plague!

Before you comment on the Destroyer lord, maybe you should read the codex.
No, he cannot take a phase shifter. He has no way of getting an invul save
He has everliving: So force weapon or power weapon, doesn't make a difference.
and positining in CC? you must put as many into base to base as possible, I keep my 2 coils up front with the D-Lord inbetween. The third wraith stays in the back of the squad, so unless you assault from behind, enemy will always be in b2b with a whip coil = D-lord goes first.
DLord does get MSS, which can stop one person from swinging, I try to postion him so the only guy he touches is the srgt, or whoever has the best weapon.

I think that wraiths are not that deadly. Resiliant, yes. They get a decent amount of attacks, but rending is not a reliable way to take anybody down.
Or maybe I'm wrong and they get a whole lot better if I take a full squad, but for now I only have 6. I will get two squads of 6 eventually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or, another idea!
Take out a Dlord and a wraith squad
bump up the size of the 1 wraith squad
Add an Olord on CCB
make minimal sized warrior squads
change the C'tan's powers to GoD and WW
throw some crypteks in
1 veiltek, 1 pulsetek, 3 tremorteks
bubblewrap the monolith/stalkers with the 6th warrior group

Could this work?

That's why I put a ? about the D-Lord taking a phase shifter as I wasn't sure.... so it's not the case of me reading the codex, it's the case of you not understanding what i am saying

Force weapons kill a D-Lord out right, he cannot get back up from force weapon.

No, not all enemy models will be in base to base contact with Wraiths. Models behind the enemy models in contact with Wraiths can allocate attacks onto the D-Lord.

You think Wraiths aren't deadly because you use them in two small units and do not have that many attacks. Against a Tactical Squads your unit of Wraiths would only hit 6 times and wound 5 times, maybe a rend if you're lucky. Units of 5 at least are the best way to go.

I think your new train of thought is on the right track. The D-Lord is cool, but seriously what does he add to Wraiths? Gives a few extra attacks with no armour saves and takes ap3 shots and that's about it, costs some serious points just to do all that plus you do not get a Royal Court either.

Soryy, for misunderstanding.
Force weapons might instakill him, but he does still get his RP. Also, his T6 will stop most. If there is a force weapon, it is probably on a IC (exception GK), if so, the IC has to be in b2b, which means MSS will get him.
You are right about not everyone in b2b with the wraiths, but I haven't had to much of an issue with it. a Dlord is T6, so that helps reduce the # of wounds he takes.

At 2500 points I'd suggest that Royal courts are really helpful. This points level is disco inferno territory where you can put 1000 points into a massive death star and still have troops and other goodies.

I didn't suggest it before as you seemed to be focussed on the Dlord/wraith combo.

A disco inferno plus 6 wraiths with Dlord will give most opponents trouble I suspect.

disco inferno? what is that?

Royal Court Disco Inferno

5xLord (5xWarscythe,MSS,SW,PS. 2xOrb)
1xHoDespair (Staff,Shroud,Veil)
1xHoEternity (AeonStave, Chrono, Cloak)
1xHoStorm (Voltaic Staff, Lightning)
2xHoDestruction (Lance, 1 Gaze, 1 Pulse)

935 points.

Change Crypteks/Lords loadout to taste. Add Overlord for additional goodness (e.g. Zahndrek/Obyron for furious charge & ghost walk)

wow, that is a wicked expensive unit. But I bet it kills just about anything.

I am now leaning towards one Dlord and one Olord on barge. That will give me some crypteks to go with my warriors.

Never played it myself, but there are a couple of amusing threads in 40K tactics on how to counter it.

OLord and Crypteks will give you more options.

Moronic Nonsense wrote:Soryy, for misunderstanding.
Force weapons might instakill him, but he does still get his RP. Also, his T6 will stop most. If there is a force weapon, it is probably on a IC (exception GK), if so, the IC has to be in b2b, which means MSS will get him.
You are right about not everyone in b2b with the wraiths, but I haven't had to much of an issue with it. a Dlord is T6, so that helps reduce the # of wounds he takes.

Don't think he will get up from a force weapon as it inflicts instant death, E.L only says if removed as a casualty. And mindshackled may get the I.C, though chances are high they will.

mercer wrote:Don't think he will get up from a force weapon as it inflicts instant death, E.L only says if removed as a casualty. And mindshackled may get the I.C, though chances are high they will.

Nothing can ignore RP on a everliving character, with two exceptions:
1. you completel cover the 3 inch area around where he died in a way that he has no where to 'respawn' at
2. A IC was joined to a squad that got swept by a sweeping advanced or they ran off the table

mercer wrote:

Moronic Nonsense wrote:Soryy, for misunderstanding.
Force weapons might instakill him, but he does still get his RP. Also, his T6 will stop most. If there is a force weapon, it is probably on a IC (exception GK), if so, the IC has to be in b2b, which means MSS will get him.
You are right about not everyone in b2b with the wraiths, but I haven't had to much of an issue with it. a Dlord is T6, so that helps reduce the # of wounds he takes.

Don't think he will get up from a force weapon as it inflicts instant death, E.L only says if removed as a casualty. And mindshackled may get the I.C, though chances are high they will.

Instant Death removes as a casualty.

Instant Death = remove as casualty = Reanimation protocols!

Does it? Wow in YMDC I was told it doesn't.

Ok, the tournament is tomorrow, I'll let ya'll know how it goes. Here is the list I'm gonna bring:
Overlord on CCB with warscythe, MSS, SW, PS
royal court (split up into the troops)
5 guass Immortals with Harbringer of Destruction, solar pulse
5 tesla Immortals with Harbringer of Despair, viel of darkness
3 x 5 warriors with Tremortek
8 scarabs
DLord with warscythe, sw, mss, (tachyon arrow, res orb or 2 more scarabs?)
6 Wraiths, 3 coils, 1 particle caster, 2 reg
C'Tan with Gaze of Deathe and writhing worldscape
2 Triarch Stalkers with Heat Ray
Monolith
2 Doomsday Arks

Either 2 scarabs or switch heat ray to heavy gauss cannon to take advantage of longer range for twin linking.

Ok, tournament over, I had a lot of fun. Sadly though, I didn't win. I got a draw for all three of my games! The missions really made it an uphill battle for me.
So game #1 vs. Dark Eldar. Pitched battle, mission: escort three 'characters' off of the opponents board edge. Neither of us got any of our people to the other side, so it just became a battle for the extra battle points.
game #2: victory pts, dawn of war, vs. Necrons
This was an all out slugfest, trading blow for blow. In the end, we only differed in VPs by about 50, so another draw for me. The real trick here was that I had only one solar pulse and he had two. and Dawn of war night figth turn 1 was annoying. As soon as I night fight was lifted, I blew him apart. Oh, and my 10 scarabs went through 3 vehicles for a total of 370 pts, and survived through 20 warriors firing at them (multi wounds and in cover for 3+)
game #3 spear head, sieze ground vs orks
I got bottlenecked in the center against 6 kans a battlewagon and a huge nob squad with powerklaws and wound allocation shenanigans.. He left a big mob on three of the objectives, I was only able to scare one of them off the obj, and I finally took back the middle after taking the nobs down with a torrent of pie plates from my heavy support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Observations:
6 wraiths and a Dlord is overkill. I think 4 and a Dlord would have worked just as well, or just 6 wraiths.
Triarch Stalker weaponry: in my game against necrons, We each had two Stalkers, his had the TL Heavy guass cannon, S9 range 36 and I had the Heat Rays.
His Stalkers couldn't kill any of my vehicles. Mine killed two wraiths, and his stalker. That ap 1 helps alot (and ap 1 is getting better). Also, two shots is better than 1 shot twin linked. Heat ray also wins because it is cheaper and has an alternate fire mode, great for killing ork mobs
doomsday arks had a tough time against vehicles, stupid 1/2 strength for a partial hit, Though this will change, it will always be full S! The combo of Stalkers and Doomsday arks were extremely deadly. With my list, there were plenty of other threats, so the arks were generally ignored.
Monolith: great intimidation factor, great weapon S8 ap 3 blast! and my favorite has to be the portal, it is my ultimate in claiming an objective, or teleporting a big warrior squad right in front to gun you down.
CCB: great
Tremorstaves and Writhing worldscape: did nothing for me. against DE, turn 1 assault so it made no difference. Orks, just ran to obj on turn 1 and stood there, so no moving through terrain. Necrons, didn't need to move much, but it did immobilise the Deepstriking Doomscythe. Not worth the points, I think lord of fire or swarm of spirit dust would be better spent, then I can use those pts on the tremortek for a destuctek instead!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
C'Tan was worth his points. His CC prowess saved my backfield multiple times. He took out a 2 DE units that flew into my backfield. He killed the Doomscythe and a squad of immortals with two crypteks. and He killed a couple of nobs and held Ghakull Thraka up for a while