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The rumored rules look pretty bad for DE, which happens to be the only army i play a lot.

1. FNP going to 5+
This hurts wyches and wracks the most, as other units are either much tougher or generally wont get FNP.

2. Power weapons are only AP3 now.
This means that CC with termies is pretty out of the question. Especially without any power fist options.

3. Overwatch or defensive fire or whatever they are going to call it.
Getting shot at on the charge doesnt sound good for my squishy witches.

4. Ive read that skimmers either get 5+ all the time (then whats the point of ff?) or that they only get 5+ moving flat out.
Either way it doesn't benefit raider/venom spam.

There are good things like the presumed boost to rapid fire weapons and the bonuses jump infantry get on the charge.... but every other army gets those...

I dont see the reason for the FnP nerf. The problem wasn't the rule itself, just how they handed it out to everyone. BA...

Now, it seems like the only competitive list for DE will be darklight venom spam. Which makes my mostly mobile wych and wrack army pretty sad. What do you guys think?

I read this in the rumour thread:

Kroothawk wrote:
it is only a few days before official pics are published and another week before the book is in everyones hands.
Until then don't panic

Should soothe your fears.

It is hard not to.

They are really my only friends...

I agree with you, the rumors don't look good. However, I am reserving judgment on the rules until I get the rulebook. Should be sometime around Christmas.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:I agree with you, the rumors don't look good. However, I am reserving judgment on the rules until I get the rulebook. Should be sometime around Christmas.

I also agree, the rumors look like they'd be very bad for DE while also boosting DE's common opponents.

Paris.in.Flames wrote:1. FNP going to 5+
This hurts wyches and wracks the most, as other units are either much tougher or generally wont get FNP.

Agreed.

Paris.in.Flames wrote:2. Power weapons are only AP3 now.
This means that CC with termies is pretty out of the question. Especially without any power fist options.

Wait, what? IMO this makes it much safer for you to tarpit a squad of terminators; as long as they're not entirely powerfists, you get an additional 5+ save from FNP that you didn't get in fifth edition.

Paris.in.Flames wrote:3. Overwatch or defensive fire or whatever they are going to call it.
Getting shot at on the charge doesnt sound good for my squishy witches.

Agreed, but I'm hanging onto hope that Wyches will be able to use their Dodge to avoid this; I wouldn't mind getting shot at with BS1 fire when I get a 4++/5+ save.

Paris.in.Flames wrote:4. Ive read that skimmers either get 5+ all the time (then whats the point of ff?) or that they only get 5+ moving flat out.
Either way it doesn't benefit raider/venom spam.

The point of the Flickerfield is that it's an invulnerable save, so it works against close combat attacks (whereas cover saves don't). What I've read is that you'll get the 5+ for being a fast skimmer, but a 4+ when you turbo boost. Nothing bad (or even different) there.

Paris.in.Flames wrote:There are good things like the presumed boost to rapid fire weapons and the bonuses jump infantry get on the charge.... but every other army gets those...

Every other army also has to deal with these changes; Kabalites that can blast them with rapid fire weapons and blasters while being charged, Wyches that are even more durable against power weapons than ever before, and (DUN DUN DUN!) super-crazy flyer rules, where your Razorwing or Voidraven can only be hit on a roll of 6 from shooting attacks the turn it flat outs 36" across the board.

Paris.in.Flames wrote:I dont see the reason for the FnP nerf. The problem wasn't the rule itself, just how they handed it out to everyone. BA...

The problem is that a lot of fireline armies just can't handle 3+/4+ marines in their faces, and the same armies that can spam those marines are getting a huge boost from the new rules (DOA Blood Angels, for example).

Paris.in.Flames wrote:Now, it seems like the only competitive list for DE will be darklight venom spam. Which makes my mostly mobile wych and wrack army pretty sad. What do you guys think?

I think that the same Wych builds will continue to do well, and that Razorwings will become popular; they're pretty much indestructible the turn they arrive from reserve, and they're capable of wiping pretty much anything in one round of shooting. Venoms will still be good, but you can't take disposable scoring units anymore if transports are no longer scoring. Overall, the rumors make the game seem almost shockingly balanced between good-but-not-scoring mech and infantry/close combat units.

My standard answer for all of these "Will 6E hurt/help my ____ Codex?"

No one can answer that until we have the actual rules in our hands in 2 weeks! Sorry buddy, can't help you any more than that!

kronk wrote:My standard answer for all of these "Will 6E hurt/help my ____ Codex?"

No one can answer that until we have the actual rules in our hands in 2 weeks! Sorry buddy, can't help you any more than that!

The rules will come out and people will go ack my army is screwed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Then (hopefully) the specific army FAQs will be released where you learn that.

Wyches get their 4+ dodge save vs reaction fire. Agonizers/huskblades/etc are AP2 weapons because they have abilities beyond just being power weapons so they fit into the AP2/1 category.
Units with fleet gets changed to 3D6 charge ranges or something like that.

etc. etc. The FAQ and what gets errated to keep units competitive/desirable will be the real issue as to if DE are screwed or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a totally positive side, if the rumor about power weapons also getting a 5+ perry save (inv). Thats going to make Incubi pretty damn cool. 3+/5++ (combat only)/5+ FNP

robpace wrote:

Paris.in.Flames wrote:4. Ive read that skimmers either get 5+ all the time (then whats the point of ff?) or that they only get 5+ moving flat out.
Either way it doesn't benefit raider/venom spam.

The point of the Flickerfield is that it's an invulnerable save, so it works against close combat attacks (whereas cover saves don't). What I've read is that you'll get the 5+ for being a fast skimmer, but a 4+ when you turbo boost. Nothing bad (or even different) there.

Flickerfileds cannot be used in cc at the moment. But that may change to make them usefull if all skimmer get the 5+ save.

I agree that the current changes doesn't seem good for the usual DE units, but it may make other DE units such as the Talos and Chronos to be better.. And the flyers will be sweet.

Kajon wrote:

Flickerfileds cannot be used in cc at the moment. But that may change to make them usefull if all skimmer get the 5+ save.

I agree that the current changes doesn't seem good for the usual DE units, but it may make other DE units such as the Talos and Chronos to be better.. And the flyers will be sweet.

Yeah. There is going to be a pretty big boost for monstrous creatures it seems. And the flyers of course. I usually run a razorwing with two ravagers for heavy support as is right now. (mostly for the pie plates against my ork pals ) I might have to invest in another. We will see. I just started playing when the 5th ed DE came out, so ive never had to deal with this new addition stuff.

Aren't 2 handed power weapons AP2? If so, Incubi really don't change.

You are suffering from premature evaluation. Wait until we have all the facts.

Kajon wrote:

robpace wrote:

Paris.in.Flames wrote:4. Ive read that skimmers either get 5+ all the time (then whats the point of ff?) or that they only get 5+ moving flat out.
Either way it doesn't benefit raider/venom spam.

The point of the Flickerfield is that it's an invulnerable save, so it works against close combat attacks (whereas cover saves don't). What I've read is that you'll get the 5+ for being a fast skimmer, but a 4+ when you turbo boost. Nothing bad (or even different) there.

Flickerfileds cannot be used in cc at the moment. But that may change to make them usefull if all skimmer get the 5+ save.

I agree that the current changes doesn't seem good for the usual DE units, but it may make other DE units such as the Talos and Chronos to be better.. And the flyers will be sweet.

Flickerfileds cant be used in CC? i didnt know that (not a DE player) we have all been playing that it does as book says they get a 5+ inv.. is this not right?

Being an invulnerable save they can be used in CC.

very useful it proves too at times

Kajon wrote:

robpace wrote:Flickerfileds cannot be used in cc at the moment. But that may change to make them usefull if all skimmer get the 5+ save.

The Flickerfield is an Invulnerable Save, therefore can be used anytime an invun could be used.
This includes in Close Combat. Unless you're saying we can't use Invuns in CC, in which case that's a BIG game changer

If all the rumours we've heard so far turn out to be 100% true, then... assault DE are in trouble, shooty DE are rejoicing.

As a person who just prefers assault-heavy DE, only using shooty units for cover fire, I'm not liking the rumours so far, but I'll reserve my judgment, may be they will FAQ in some nice bonus for our army, may be we'll stand a chance against the possible increase in psyker army! May be our wyches will be able to dodge overwatch! May be our agoniser will still be agonising for termies instead of being ticklish! ...haha... right... :(

Paris.in.Flames wrote:The rumored rules look pretty bad for DE, which happens to be the only army i play a lot.

1. FNP going to 5+
This hurts wyches and wracks the most, as other units are either much tougher or generally wont get FNP.

As a long time DE player, I don't really see what the crying is about. Wyches didn't get fnp at all in the first codex and they were great then. So what if they don't get a 4+ fnp roll now. They will get a 5+ to power weapons on top of the 4+ dodge save.

2. Power weapons are only AP3 now.
This means that CC with termies is pretty out of the question. Especially without any power fist options.

Everything I've read says ap2, meaning nothing changed.

3. Overwatch or defensive fire or whatever they are going to call it.
Getting shot at on the charge doesnt sound good for my squishy witches.

Could be bad, then again, it's only a hit on a 6 b/c everyone dropped to BS1, so it's not that bad. You still get a save.

4. Ive read that skimmers either get 5+ all the time (then whats the point of ff?) or that they only get 5+ moving flat out.
Either way it doesn't benefit raider/venom spam.

5+ cover saves all around, great! I won't be spending 120 points on Flickerfields per army. I can add in another squad of warriors.

There are good things like the presumed boost to rapid fire weapons and the bonuses jump infantry get on the charge.... but every other army gets those...

Every other army doesn't have 16 point jump infantry w/ fleet and possibly FNP, along with a jump infantry special character granting them move through cover and stealth either. The jump infantry bonuses make hellions better now.

Now, it seems like the only competitive list for DE will be darklight venom spam. Which makes my mostly mobile wych and wrack army pretty sad. What do you guys think?

Not so. Just hang in there. DE will still be badass. We may just have to kill people in different ways than we used to, which is what DE do.

My list is a Coven, I have Grotesques and Wracks. The FNP IS my save.

But hey, life goes on. If the Allies rules are about, I get an Autarch or something to modify reserve rolls and boost my WWP list. You win some, you lose some, but so long as you adapt and can think, you'll be fine.

If you're a mindless drone (which it doesn't look like, just skittish) then wait 3-6 months till people have figured it out for you.

Paris.in.Flames wrote:Yeah. There is going to be a pretty big boost for monstrous creatures it seems.

You and I must be reading different rumors.
Hint: The double strength / half attack smash isn't a buff.

rigeld2 wrote:

Paris.in.Flames wrote:Yeah. There is going to be a pretty big boost for monstrous creatures it seems.

You and I must be reading different rumors.
Hint: The double strength / half attack smash isn't a buff.

Depends. Talos rolls 5-6, halves attacks for 3 Str10 atks instead of 5-6 Str 7 atks and now instagibs marines and other T5 monsters, OR, makes it more reliable at killing high armour ( average roll on 2D6 = 7, so your average to pen roll will be 13-15. Make it Str 10 and that's now an average of 16-18, meaning you can reliably kill land raiders)
Frankly, same for Cronos

But I'm going to wait till my preordered ook arrives to cast judgement.

Formosa wrote:

Kajon wrote:

robpace wrote:

Paris.in.Flames wrote:4. Ive read that skimmers either get 5+ all the time (then whats the point of ff?) or that they only get 5+ moving flat out.
Either way it doesn't benefit raider/venom spam.

The point of the Flickerfield is that it's an invulnerable save, so it works against close combat attacks (whereas cover saves don't). What I've read is that you'll get the 5+ for being a fast skimmer, but a 4+ when you turbo boost. Nothing bad (or even different) there.

Flickerfileds cannot be used in cc at the moment. But that may change to make them usefull if all skimmer get the 5+ save.

I agree that the current changes doesn't seem good for the usual DE units, but it may make other DE units such as the Talos and Chronos to be better.. And the flyers will be sweet.

Flickerfileds cant be used in CC? i didnt know that (not a DE player) we have all been playing that it does as book says they get a 5+ inv.. is this not right?

Ooops. I think I remembered an faq ruling incorrect. It was imobilization by difficult terrain it doesn't protect against. I've not been playing so much lately. Sorry for the confusion.