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Alright so I was at a tournament yesterday and I was going up against a high elf list who was going heavy light, attempting to do strength 7 Banishment by combining his light mage's together. Now he said he was going to cast banishment on my great cannon. Now, if he were going to cast banishment, his LoS (to my knowledge) would be blocked by the block of archers in front of him, and then the fact that I had demigryphs infront of my great-cannon.

Now, could he actually cast a LoS spell on my unit even though it was behind one of my unit's and through that unit and one of his own?

Diagram attached.

If the model could see your great cannon adequately with true line of sight, yes.

If you got to model's-eye level, could they see the cannon? Can't tell with the diagram if things were on hills or not.

True Line of Sight is exactly that- whether his model can see your model or not, regardless of intervening terrain. Even though there may be units in the way, if he can see over the archer's shoulder and under the Demigryph's tummy through it's legs to the cannon, then he can cast the spell at you.

Simply having units in the way does not block True Line of Sight, you have to instead build a solid wall that he cannot see through. It's certainly abusable, but them's the rules.

What I believe you're thinking of is a "virtual" line of sight, similar to 7th edition.

So if he can see the very slightest bit of the cannon he could cast the spell at it? Seeing that it's a spell there is no line of sight issues so not negative modifiers...wow....just plain wow...

Avrik_Shasla wrote:So if he can see the very slightest bit of the cannon he could cast the spell at it? Seeing that it's a spell there is no line of sight issues so not negative modifiers...wow....just plain wow...

From the BRB, page 10:

"For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace am unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the body (i.e. the head, torso, arms or legs) of the target."

Weapons, tails, ornaments etc do not count.

So unless we can see exactly what was on your table, we can't really say for sure.

Well nothing was blocking his line of sight, I mean he could see over archers because the High elven models are tall as **** (or atleast their mages). And he could see the great cannon from behind my demigrpyhs.

So there was no intervening terrain between the cannon and his mage, just units.

Avrik_Shasla wrote:So if he can see the very slightest bit of the cannon he could cast the spell at it? Seeing that it's a spell there is no line of sight issues so not negative modifiers...wow....just plain wow...

Yep, he sure can. Just like he can fire his cannon at you, through several of his own units, as long as he can see a sliver of you...

I think TLOS takes a little bit away from the game myself in that aspect.

djones520 wrote:

Avrik_Shasla wrote:So if he can see the very slightest bit of the cannon he could cast the spell at it? Seeing that it's a spell there is no line of sight issues so not negative modifiers...wow....just plain wow...

Yep, he sure can. Just like he can fire his cannon at you, through several of his own units, as long as he can see a sliver of you...

I think TLOS takes a little bit away from the game myself in that aspect.

Problem is with this that it is LoS, and a Cannon is VERY low to the ground XD

Of course if the cannon doesn't go away, you've also got line-of-sight back at the archmange...

Cannons don't shoot at units, they shoot at points on the ground(which is easily blocked by units)

Bottom line, if he can see the cannon he can cast a spell at it.

Grey Templar wrote:Cannons don't shoot at units, they shoot at points on the ground(which is easily blocked by units)

Bottom line, if he can see the cannon he can cast a spell at it.

But I believe it cannot be fully blocked by a unit controlled by the cannon's target. I'm pretty sure I remember reading something that would allow the cannon's target point to be in the middle of an enemy unit, even though you technically couldn't see the ground under that model.

I'm at work, so don't have access to the mail rule book for several hours; could someone check that for me?

It actually just says the target "does not have to be an enemy model; it can be a point on the ground".

You do not HAVE to target the ground, models are viable.

Page 112, main rules.

And you cannot shoot the cannon if it would be possable to hit friendly models(meaning you need 20" of clear space beyond the point you are aiming at)

I don't have my Rulebook handy, but if Banishment is a Direct Damage spell, then it does not need LoS anyway.

That being said, it might be a Magic Missile(which does need LoS). I don't know.

It is a magic missile.

This is why my gaming group has a handy dandy laser-pointer put that bad boy at eye level and if you cant make the dot show up on the target its a no-go.

Avrik_Shasla wrote:So if he can see the very slightest bit of the cannon he could cast the spell at it? Seeing that it's a spell there is no line of sight issues so not negative modifiers...wow....just plain wow...

Well... considering the cannon can return the favor...


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Grey Templar wrote:And you cannot shoot the cannon if it would be possable to hit friendly models(meaning you need 20" of clear space beyond the point you are aiming at)

That's not how it's been ruled at my store. TLOS works in favor of the cannon as well. You don't hit models until it bounces. If you can show me otherwise, I'd be happy to know, cause I always thought it was BS that a cannon can fire through a line of infantry because their arms were held up high or something.

TLOS for WFB is just stupid. No one was really complaining in 6th edition when you needed front arc and a clear line of sight on the ground. If you were on a hill, you could see over everyone else that isn't a large target. If you are a large target, anyone facing you in their 45 degree front arc can see you.

It was a simpler time, when cannons didn't need to literally be laser guided.

Grey Templar wrote:Cannons don't shoot at units, they shoot at points on the ground(which is easily blocked by units)

Bottom line, if he can see the cannon he can cast a spell at it.

A cannon CAN shoot at a unit. The player may opt to target the ground a few inches short with the expectation of overshooting, or the player may choose the model as his target with the expectation of landing a hit. Check the rules again for cannons.


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Grey Templar wrote:And you cannot shoot the cannon if it would be possable to hit friendly models(meaning you need 20" of clear space beyond the point you are aiming at)

20"? Where does it say that?

All you need from the cannon is line of sight from its muzzle to the target to shoot. You just can't have a friendly unit as a target.

Page 112, third paragraph under "CHOOSE TARGET".

kirsanth wrote:Page 112, third paragraph under "CHOOSE TARGET".

I like the part where you looked up the ruling, then only posted where others can look it up instead of quoting the rule.

And the actual wording is:

"Note that you are not allowed to make a cannon shot in such a way that it has a chance of hitting a friendly unit or an enemy unit that is engaged in close combat."

RAI may be what you are saying, but RAW says you can't shoot in a way that hits a friendly unit that is in combat.

Aerethan wrote:I like the part where you looked up the ruling, then only posted where others can look it up instead of quoting the rule.

The reason for that is the question itself.

SoCxWarChief wrote:Where does it say that?

So, I actually answered it.

"Note that you are not allowed to make a cannon shot in such a way that it has a chance of hitting a friendly unit or an enemy unit that is engaged in close combat."

RAI may be what you are saying, but RAW says you can't shoot in a way that hits a friendly unit that is in combat. "
No, it doesnt say that.

It says you cannot hit a :

1) Friendly unit or
2) Enemy unit engaged in close combat

That is the correct way to parse the sentence. So yes, you need 20" of space behind to fire a cannon.

Not to be overly pedantic, but you don't need a full 20" clear of friendlies/enemies in combat. The first 2" is safe for everyone since the minimum you can roll on the initial shot is 2", a misfire being no shot at all.

It would be more accurate to say you need 18" of space starting from 2" beyond your target point.

kirsanth wrote:Page 112, third paragraph under "CHOOSE TARGET".

And the target can be the Ground or the Unit. =/