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So I have been wondering on this for awhile and think that I have some conflicting ideas on how these interact. Forgive as I don't have the exact wording of the feats available but here is the question/situation:

In both Harby and Old Witch's feats if a unit advances while within the caster's control area they will take an unmodified POW 14 (for Old Witch at least) hit. Now the tactical tip box states that a model must advance in order to have the feat's damage affect take place. (again I believe I am interpreting this correctly at this point)

Sooo...

If I have a unit of lets say bane thralls caught in the control zone of either caster when the feat goes off will I avoid the POW 14 hit if I activate but do not "advance" or will I take the hit regardless of whether I advance or not?

My problem is that I believe a model/unit is always considered to be advancing when it activates. Even if I don't move I "advance" a total of 0" which means I take the hit. The only way to avoid advancing is to sacrifice movement to get an aiming bonus, so model/units with a ranged attack option could avoid the hit as they do not advance.

So what do you think... this one is confusing me a touch.

Those are two different feats:

The Old Witch:

While in the Old Witchʼs control area, enemy models cannot run, charge, or make special attacks. Enemy models that advance
and end their movement in the Old Witchʼs control area immediately suffer an unboostable POW 14 damage roll. Field of Talons
lasts for one round.

The Harbinger:

For one round, advancing enemy models that end their movement in the Harbingerʼs control area closer to her than they began
suffer an unboostable POW 14 fire damage roll ICON.

So for the Harbinger, you'll only get the POW 14 if you end your movement closer to him than you started, so if you move 0", you don't get hit.

As for the Old Witch, you are correct in saying that a 0" advance is still and advance, but you CAN forfeit your movement to gain an aiming bonus, even if you don't have a ranged weapon, so you can avoid the damage from the feat by simply saying that you forfeit your movement to get the aiming bonus...

These feats are killer in scenarios but they are different. So lets explain the easy one first. Harbinger.

With her feat you take the damage if you end your movement closer to harbinger than when you started (best policy in a tournament game, use empty bases, saves arguments). This is any voluntary movement so a model using side step or similar to move closer to harbinger takes damage on that movement as well.

The old witch has it slightly different. You take damage if you end your advance within her control area. So unless you can move outside her control area you take the damage no matter which direction you move.

On to your example (using old witch's feat). You are correct that even if the models just stand there they have advanced 0" and will take the damage. But there is a loophole, aiming. Any model can forfeit their movement to aim, even those without ranged weapons. And because they didn't end their movement, they forfeited it, they do not take the damage.

edit: Ninja'd, but you do have to declare the forfeit else the assumption is that they moved 0".

Excellent... the part I wasn't sure on/knew about was that all models can delcare aiming bonus... even if they don't have a ranged weapon. Perfect this will help the players at my store be better prepared at some tourneys.

Thanks for the help!

Ok, as I said a side step movement towards harbinger under feat makes you take damage. Does thus also apply under old witch's feat?

yastobaal wrote:Ok, as I said a side step movement towards harbinger under feat makes you take damage. Does thus also apply under old witch's feat?

Its still an advance so I don't see why it wouldn't also apply...

PS: Just to clarify the question, I don't know if we can put links to other forums here or not, but your question was asked in the PP forums a while ago and this was the reply from an Infernal:

Since the feat does not refer to normal movement than any movement will trigger it.[/quote

Cool, thought so but thought it best to clarify everything. And I haven't been told off yet for linking to the PP forums.

watch me get banned now : )

FWIW, it should be noted that placement effects ignore both cases.

So what about teleport and placed abilities? I was at a steamroller this weekend and I activated harbies feat and my opponent used gallows to move closer to harby, the judge ruled that placed and teleport's aren't advancing so won't take the damage but I don't think thats right but I didn't have and FAQs or had time to really debate it so I just went with his ruling.

Luthon1234 wrote:So what about teleport and placed abilities? I was at a steamroller this weekend and I activated harbies feat and my opponent used gallows to move closer to harby, the judge ruled that placed and teleport's aren't advancing so won't take the damage but I don't think thats right but I didn't have and FAQs or had time to really debate it so I just went with his ruling.

The Judge is correct. Placing is NOT Advancing, it says this in the rulebook: "When a model is placed it is not considered to have moved or advanced.", pg 24(mini-rulebook).

An advance is pretty much any voluntary movement. But placement effects (Kromac's leap, telekinesis, etc) are not advances. Nor are push effects like gallows.

They do ignore both feats. Placing is not advancing (p. 48 Prime) and there is nothing in the feat that mentions having to enter the area of effect (p.65 Prime). This is one of the reasons that Circle in general is such a hard counter to eHaley, Witch, Harby, eDenny, and other area control casters like that. Know it's coming, set up a Stalker/Ghetto slingshot, kill away.

You can also move at right angles to Harby and avoid the feat damage since you will not be closer to her at the end of the movement.

12thRonin wrote:They do ignore both feats. Placing is not advancing (p. 48 Prime) and there is nothing in the feat that mentions having to enter the area of effect (p.65 Prime). This is one of the reasons that Circle in general is such a hard counter to eHaley, Witch, Harby, eDenny, and other area control casters like that. Know it's coming, set up a Stalker/Ghetto slingshot, kill away.

You can also move at right angles to Harby and avoid the feat damage since you will not be closer to her at the end of the movement.

That's why you tag team her feat with the Avatar.

That can take away or minimize the angular movement, but you don't have to advance which keeps the placement effect still in place. It just says that if you do advance, it has to be toward the Avatar. Just like the interesting guy and his beer.

12thRonin wrote:That can take away or minimize the angular movement, but you don't have to advance which keeps the placement effect still in place. It just says that if you do advance, it has to be toward the Avatar. Just like the interesting guy and his beer.

It also means that you can't move away. The reason you tag team the two is to remove ANY move options in a certain area. Yes, you can still place, but you'd be surprised at the relative rarity of place effects in the game.