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This is just going to be a thread that says "Hey what would be the primarchs stat line" so lets go for broke and get started.
This would just be an example for you guys to look at.
Daemon Mortarion

WS:7 BS:7 S:7 T:8 W:6 I:6 A:5 Ld:10 Sv:2+ (4+)


Wargear: Brass armour of Corruption, The Lantern, Mortarion's Manreaper, Frag and Krak grenades

The Lantern: Mortarion was known to wield a large, ebon plasma pistol. It counts as a Legendary Plasma Gun with the following profile:
range:18" str:7 Ap:2 Type: Assault 1

Mortarion's Manreaper: In battle Mortarion wields an awesome plague scythe dripping with pestilential energies and corrupt matter. Its surface writhes as if composed of flesh and strands of diseased tissue lace the metal and wood. Any multi-wound victim that suffers at least one wound from the scythe must roll a D6. On a roll of 1-3 the scythe's infectitious power doesn't take hold and they receive a normal wound. On a roll of 4 or more the victim drops to the ground , convulsing and screaming horridly as they are racked with disease and infection. The model must be removed as a casualty and any friendly units or models within 12 inches must pass a leadership test or fall back as they flee from the terror that has been wrought on their fellow. If the model is part of a unit that unit must also take the test just like any other. this does not apply to immortal, daemonic or technological foes, against which the scythe just acts as a normal weapon.
Mortarion's Scythe also counts as a Legendary Manreaper that may roll 2D6 for extra attacks and use the highest.

Brass armour of Corruption: This armour was a gift from Nurgle himself. The thick brass armour has been enhanced by the warp and its surface writhes with flies and disease. The armour protects Mortarion from all but the most powerful of attacks, it provides him with a +2 armour and a +4 invulnerable save.


Special rules:

Body of Pestilence: After being transformed by Nurgle, Mortarion's body became dulled to pain and he could continue fighting even after suffering damage that would incapacitate anyone else. He has toughness 8 and 6 wounds, he also has Feel No Pain (see the Warhammer 40k rulebook).

Wings: Mortarion has immense, tattered wings protruding from his back. He is capable of daemonic flight.

Monstrous Creature: Mortarion was always considered very tall and imposing and after being transformed by Nurgle he was only made to be even larger. He counts as being a Monstrous Creature

Aura of disease: Mortarion is always accompanied by a thick black cloud of flies which can be used to attack enemies and infect others. He counts as having the psychic powers 'Nurgles Rot' and 'Wind of Chaos'. He doesn’t need to pass a psychic power to use the attacks but he may only use one per turn.

Death Incarnate:
Mortarion's appearance after being transformed by Nurgle into the Plague Prince is terrifying to most foes, stopping them dead in their tracks and gripping their hearts with fear. Any enemy unit wishing to charge him or a unit he leads must take a "fear" test. Note, this applies to all models including fearless but not including models that may choose to pass or fail morale tests. Should they fail, they may not assault this turn. Any enemy unit within 6" of Mortarion suffers from -2 Ld additional to any other modifiers.

Fearless: Mortarion has seen things that would drive a mortal to the very brink of insanity. He is absolutely fearless and never needs to test for moral, leadership, pinning, etc. Also, any psychic powers, weapons or abilities which induce fear or require a leadership or moral check to be take simply have no effect on Mortarion .

That's a bit too much power for Mortarion. He only has Manreaper now and no other major wargear because he has become a daemon prince of papa Nurgle.

A system I use is that WS and BS should add up to 14, S T and I should add up to 18, W should be 4, A should be 5, Ld should be 10, and Sv should be 2+/4++ or better

Thesanguinesword wrote:That's a bit too much power for Mortarion. He only has Manreaper now and no other major wargear because he has become a daemon prince of papa Nurgle.

Latern plasma pistol. Read Flight of the Eisenstien. (did I say that right?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I play tested him today and he went down like a litte !@#$
I was I was but oh well Grey Knights!

I figure the (base) stats for a Primarch (will vary depending on the Primarch) should be WS7 BS6 S5 T5 W5 I6 A5 Ld10 Sv2+.
How do I figure this? Well, a Marine's base stat is 4. A powerful CM's stats are as follows, with X indicating the base stat:
WS:X + 2
BS: X + 1
S: X
T: X
W: X
I: X + 1
A: X
Ld: Always 10
Sv: Granted by armour.

Same goes for Primarchs, only X equals 5.

Makes sense.

T5? A plague marine is just as tough :/

Painbiro wrote:I figure the (base) stats for a Primarch (will vary depending on the Primarch) should be WS7 BS6 S5 T5 W5 I6 A5 Ld10 Sv2+.
How do I figure this? Well, a Marine's base stat is 4. A powerful CM's stats are as follows, with X indicating the base stat:
WS:X + 2
BS: X + 1
S: X
T: X
W: X
I: X + 1
A: X
Ld: Always 10
Sv: Granted by armour.

Same goes for Primarchs, only X equals 5.

So a wraithlord would insta kill a primarch.. rather than get beaten to death? hmm me thinks that not right

There are many many primach threads, I suggest reading and posting on one of those to be fair.

I like the stats Painbiro proposed. Looks reasonable to me. I know some people want their primarchs to beat a squad of bloodthirsters to death with their bare hands, but I prefer them a bit more down to earth. Better than any normal marine, but not overwhelmingly so.

And Formosa, they might have 'Eternal Warrior.'

Formosa wrote:

Painbiro wrote:I figure the (base) stats for a Primarch (will vary depending on the Primarch) should be WS7 BS6 S5 T5 W5 I6 A5 Ld10 Sv2+.
How do I figure this? Well, a Marine's base stat is 4. A powerful CM's stats are as follows, with X indicating the base stat:
WS:X + 2
BS: X + 1
S: X
T: X
W: X
I: X + 1
A: X
Ld: Always 10
Sv: Granted by armour.

Same goes for Primarchs, only X equals 5.

So a wraithlord would insta kill a primarch.. rather than get beaten to death? hmm me thinks that not right

There are many many primach threads, I suggest reading and posting on one of those to be fair.

Primarchs should have eternal warrior anyway.

I would say the base for a Primarch should be something as follows
WS: 7 BS: 7 S:5 T:5 W:4 I:6 A:5 Ld 10 Sv 2+/4++
Wargear:
Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Artificer Armour, Iron Halo.
Special Rules:
And They Shall Know No Fear, Crusader, Eternal Warrior

Put them base 180 odd points.

Give them options such as:
May take any of the following options for its listed points cost:
Melta Bombs...5points
Teleport Homer...5points
Space Marine Bike*...20 points
Jump Pack*...20 points
May exchange artificer armour and iron halo for a power weapon, storm shield and terminator armour*...55 points
* May only take one, primarchs are heavy enough as it is.

If terminator armour is not taken then may take any of the following options for its listed cost:
May exchange Boltgun and/or Bolt Pistol and/or Close Combat Weapon for
Space Marine Shotgun...Free
Plasma Pistol/Power Weapon...15 points
Storm Shield...15 points
Power Fist...25 points
Thunder Hammer/Chain Fist...30 points

If their Close Combat Weapon is not replaced, may replace it with a Force Weapon and become a Psyker with:
Mastery Level 1...30 points
Mastery Level 2...45 points
Mastery Level 3...60 points
Using any psychic discipline.

Balance ain't gonna be 100% on this, but worth a try right?

Almost every primarch is tougher than a plauge marine. Barring maybe Fulgrim and Alpharius

Krellnus wrote:I would say the base for a Primarch should be something as follows
WS: 7 BS: 7 S:5 T:5 W:4 I:6 A:5 Ld 10 Sv 2+/4++
Wargear:
Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Artificer Armour, Iron Halo.
Special Rules:
And They Shall Know No Fear, Crusader, Eternal Warrior

Put them base 180 odd points.

Give them options such as:
May take any of the following options for its listed points cost:
Melta Bombs...5points
Teleport Homer...5points
Space Marine Bike*...20 points
Jump Pack*...20 points
May exchange artificer armour and iron halo for a power weapon, storm shield and terminator armour*...55 points
* May only take one, primarchs are heavy enough as it is.

If terminator armour is not taken then may take any of the following options for its listed cost:
May exchange Boltgun and/or Bolt Pistol and/or Close Combat Weapon for
Space Marine Shotgun...Free
Plasma Pistol/Power Weapon...15 points
Storm Shield...15 points
Power Fist...25 points
Thunder Hammer/Chain Fist...30 points

If their Close Combat Weapon is not replaced, may replace it with a Force Weapon and become a Psyker with:
Mastery Level 1...30 points
Mastery Level 2...45 points
Mastery Level 3...60 points
Using any psychic discipline.

Balance ain't gonna be 100% on this, but worth a try right?

Should be a little bit higher stat line if you ask me. I mean Mephiston is equal to or higher than that stat line in weapon skill, strength, toughness, wounds, and initiative.

I think that these type of threads are really common, no one post another please. I also think that Horus was way more powerful than abbadon, and abbadon is s8 t5. I think that Primarchs should be 5 wounds and 2+ invuln given by their supreme genetically enhanced physiology with 7 for every other stat and 10 leadership but modified for their particular style with stats needing to be interchanged, so if you raise one stat you need to drop another by the same amount, and a 2X modifier for leadership, so using angron as an example if i made angron s8 his leadership would drop 2X more than usual to ld8 and them to further represent his blessings from khorne and his disdain for armor he would become t6 s9. So fulgrim/deamon (because fulgrim is stuck in a painting and his body is possessed) would have I9 bs5. gtg post more soon

TheAngrySquig wrote:Almost every primarch is tougher than a plauge marine. Barring maybe Fulgrim and Alpharius

Why would Fulgrim be weaker than any other Primarch? He killed two other Primarchs and an Avatar of Khaine.

If I were able to trade my Daemon Primarch Mortarion - Ronin for the preHH Mortarion - Kabuki I would love the OP Stat line.

For now I would use Epidemius rules for Mortarion in a Nurgle CSM/Daemons allied list

Buttons wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Almost every primarch is tougher than a plauge marine. Barring maybe Fulgrim and Alpharius

Why would Fulgrim be weaker than any other Primarch? He killed two other Primarchs and an Avatar of Khaine.

A) He'd be weaker because he is. Its noted that he's weaker. He's as skilled and a lot faster, but he's not as tough as most others.

B) A daemon killed both primarchs, he was just using Fulgrim as a glorified condom. I like the little guy, he's probabbly my 4th or 5th favorite, but he isn't as strong or as tough.

SPOILERS FOR WHO FULGRIM KILLS BELOW
SPOILERS FOR WHO FULGRIM KILLS BELOW
SPOILERS FOR WHO FULGRIM KILLS BELOW


AngrySquig, Fulgrim killed Ferrus Manus, not the Daemon. He beat Ferrus on his own and only let the Daemon take control after he'd killed his brother.

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Buttons wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Almost every primarch is tougher than a plauge marine. Barring maybe Fulgrim and Alpharius

Why would Fulgrim be weaker than any other Primarch? He killed two other Primarchs and an Avatar of Khaine.

A) He'd be weaker because he is. Its noted that he's weaker. He's as skilled and a lot faster, but he's not as tough as most others.

B) A daemon killed both primarchs, he was just using Fulgrim as a glorified condom. I like the little guy, he's probabbly my 4th or 5th favorite, but he isn't as strong or as tough.

A) Where does it say that he is weaker?
B) He didn't completely fall to the daemon until he killed Ferrus Manus, at which point the daemon completely took him over.

Buttons wrote:
B) He didn't completely fall to the daemon until he killed Ferrus Manus, at which point the daemon completely took him over.

Deja vu!

Ok, Primarchs! Here we go: Start off with the Hive Tyrant:
170 points + 40 for Armored Shell = 210

BS WS S T I A W Ld. Sv
3 8 6 6 5 4 4 10 2+

Ok, good place to start for a Primarch. But lets Drop the Synapse and Monstrous Creature rules, instead replacing them with, say, Smash (so a power sword armed Primarch can kill a Terminator) and Independent Character. Ok, now lets just fiddle with the stats. How about I. 6, and maybe BS 6? Sounds fair to me. Just so people dont whine "Ah, primarch, make him expensive!", lets say he can go from 210 to 230 and gains Eternal Warrior. But wait! No invulnerable save? Ok, 20 more points for an Iron Halo.

Boom! Even 250. Heres what we got.

BS WS S T I A W Ld. Sv
5 8 6 6 6 4 4 10 2+/4++

Rules: Eternal Warrior, Smash, Ind. Char. (probably Fearless too, the Tyrant had it) (Move through cover, Tyrant had it, makes sense)

MOAR SPESHUL RULEZ: Ok, Primarchs are gods, lets throw them a bone:

Screw you heretic!: On the charge, they wield unwieldy weapons at full Initiative.

Armorbane. Because Corax picked up a Predator and used its Heavy bolter as a pistol.

Warmaster: Must be warlord, and may choose their trait instead of rolling for it.

May have either Preferred Enemy (Xenos) if Pre H, or PE (CSM/SM) depending on primarch, if H/Post H.

(each primarch may have their own rules, based on whatever their specialty is. Make it up and add points, this is a base.)

Oh, and maybe auto Deny the Witch on a 4+, plus more if a psyker.

Ok, overall, lets call it 275 points. Seems pretty fair, based off a Tyrant, which is a psyker, which primarchs arent. (unless Magnus. add points accordingly)

And... now, wargear!

Pistol, F/K grenades, CCW. Buy wargear as if a Chapter Master.

Buttons wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Buttons wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Almost every primarch is tougher than a plauge marine. Barring maybe Fulgrim and Alpharius

Why would Fulgrim be weaker than any other Primarch? He killed two other Primarchs and an Avatar of Khaine.

A) He'd be weaker because he is. Its noted that he's weaker. He's as skilled and a lot faster, but he's not as tough as most others.

B) A daemon killed both primarchs, he was just using Fulgrim as a glorified condom. I like the little guy, he's probabbly my 4th or 5th favorite, but he isn't as strong or as tough.

A) Where does it say that he is weaker?
B) He didn't completely fall to the daemon until he killed Ferrus Manus, at which point the daemon completely took him over.

A) It does somewhere, but I dont know where, I'll find it eventually though.
B) I thought the daemon gave him power to kill Ferrus and then he got super depressed and the daemon took over completely

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Buttons wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Buttons wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Almost every primarch is tougher than a plauge marine. Barring maybe Fulgrim and Alpharius

Why would Fulgrim be weaker than any other Primarch? He killed two other Primarchs and an Avatar of Khaine.

A) He'd be weaker because he is. Its noted that he's weaker. He's as skilled and a lot faster, but he's not as tough as most others.

B) A daemon killed both primarchs, he was just using Fulgrim as a glorified condom. I like the little guy, he's probabbly my 4th or 5th favorite, but he isn't as strong or as tough.

A) Where does it say that he is weaker?
B) He didn't completely fall to the daemon until he killed Ferrus Manus, at which point the daemon completely took him over.

A) It does somewhere, but I dont know where, I'll find it eventually though.
B) I thought the daemon gave him power to kill Ferrus and then he got super depressed and the daemon took over completely

A) Whatever. Isn't exactly surprising if he is a bit of a lightweight among the primarchs.
B) The daemon influenced him and lead to the fall of III Legion, but it didn't really empower him until it took over after Manus died and Fulgrim let it take over. Before it took over it was still trapped in the sword and could only really whisper to him.

If you look carefully on the GW website, there are rules to play as Angron for a First War of Armageddon campaign. If that is to be believed as being at least semi-official, than the Primarchs were nowhere near as potent as people make them out to be. Your statline for Mortarion is pretty close to being in-line with what it should be though, given that he's a Daemon Prince now.

Angron's stats in the document are as follows (remember, he is a Daemon Prince of Khorne):
WS 10 / BS 6 / S 7 / T 6 / W 5 / I 6 / A 6 / Ld 10 / Sv 4+

He was considered a Daemon (specifically a Daemon Prince by the rules at the time), his save was Invulnerable, he had a special rule that lowered all enemies Ld values within a certain distance of him by 1, he had Furious Charge, and he had a close master-crafted combat weapon that caused Instant Death.

That's about as official as you're going to get for a GW statline for the Primarchs and remember that Angron at that point was full-blown Daemon Prince so a lot of his stats are enhanced.


In my mind the Sanguinor is a pretty good placeholder and stand-in for what I view would be Sanguinius' statline, so that would be a good place to start.

I think thats good for regular Angron, except make his save 2+/4++ and as a Daemon make him a little better

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think thats good for regular Angron, except make his save 2+/4++ and as a Daemon make him a little better

Those were GW's official stats for him as a Daemon, so he really doesn't need to be any stronger apart from maybe having a few more special rules (such as Hammer of Wrath, Rage, etc). In my opinion, Angron non-Daemon should have the following stats:

WS 9 / BS 5 / S 5 / T 4 / W 4 / I 6 / A 5 / Ld 10 / Sv 2+

WARGEAR: Artificer Armour, Iron Halo, Frag and Krak Grenades, Black Blade, Bolt Pistol
- Black Blade: STR +1, AP 2, Melee, wounds cause Instant Death

SPECIAL RULES: Fearless, Eternal Warrior, Rage, Furious Charge, Counter-Attack, Warcry of Angron
- Warcry of Angron: All enemy units with a model within 12" of Angron have their Leadership value reduced by 1. He counts as having the Fear and Hammer of Wrath special rules as well.


To me, apart from some minor tweaking, that is plenty powerful enough. I would NOT want to be in close quarters with him and got forbid he gets the charge (8 Attacks, Strength 7 hits, initial strikes from Hammer of Wrath at Initiative 10, and all his wounds cause Instant Death).

But its ANGRON. He should be at least S 6 and T 6

TheAngrySquig wrote:But its ANGRON. He should be at least S 6 and T 6

I'm basing this off of what little official rules info GW has given this, why rules-wise do you think he, as a mortal, should have S 6 and T 6?

The lore on the subject can't entirely be trusted due to how many contradictions there are concerning the Primarchs and the Emperor himself. Some say they were gods, others (mainly Space Marine chapters with members old enough to remember) say that they (the Primarchs) were just exceptional Space Marines and nothing more. Exceptional does not mean they have the body mass and constitution of a Hive Tyrant.

Another example I can bring to the table is Abaddon. He's rumoued to be the clone son of Horus, which, if true, pretty much means he's physically identical to Horus in every way. If its true than it would confirm that Primarchs, physically, were hardly any different from most high-ranking Space Marines and that their real renown came from their martial prowess, tactical skills, and exploits (and in some cases their wargear). This bit of information, combined with GW's official rules for Angron, would seem to confirm the baseline stats (excluding WS and BS) were about the same as either a Chapter Master or models like Dante, The Sanguinor, and Marneus Calgar.

Nurgle wrote:

Thesanguinesword wrote:That's a bit too much power for Mortarion. He only has Manreaper now and no other major wargear because he has become a daemon prince of papa Nurgle.

Latern plasma pistol. Read Flight of the Eisenstien. (did I say that right?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I play tested him today and he went down like a litte !@#$
I was I was but oh well Grey Knights!

Did Draigo carve his predecessor's name into his heart?

Abaddon isn't a clone of Horus, he's a Little Horus. They were members of the Legion who look more similar to Horus than others in the Legion. I'm going off the BL Horus Heresy series. And I assume Angron would be so strong and tough because of his massive size. Anyway I like Monstrous Primarchs more, and you clearly like Human Primarchs more, so its just a difference of opinion