Stats for a primarch.

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Exergy**

TheAngrySquig wrote:
Buttons wrote:
TheAngrySquig wrote:
Buttons wrote:
TheAngrySquig wrote:Almost every primarch is tougher than a plauge marine. Barring maybe Fulgrim and Alpharius

Why would Fulgrim be weaker than any other Primarch? He killed two other Primarchs and an Avatar of Khaine.

A) He'd be weaker because he is. Its noted that he's weaker. He's as skilled and a lot faster, but he's not as tough as most others.

B) A daemon killed both primarchs, he was just using Fulgrim as a glorified condom. I like the little guy, he's probabbly my 4th or 5th favorite, but he isn't as strong or as tough.

A) Where does it say that he is weaker?
B) He didn't completely fall to the daemon until he killed Ferrus Manus, at which point the daemon completely took him over.

A) It does somewhere, but I dont know where, I'll find it eventually though.
B) I thought the daemon gave him power to kill Ferrus and then he got super depressed and the daemon took over completely

Fulgrim beat Ferrus alone in single combat without the daemon sword but only knocked Ferrus unconcious.

**AvatarForm**

jifel wrote:Ok, Primarchs! Here we go: Start off with the Hive Tyrant:
170 points + 40 for Armored Shell = 210

BS WS S T I A W Ld. Sv
3 8 6 6 5 4 4 10 2+

Ok, good place to start for a Primarch. But lets Drop the Synapse and Monstrous Creature rules, instead replacing them with, say, Smash (so a power sword armed Primarch can kill a Terminator) and Independent Character. Ok, now lets just fiddle with the stats. How about I. 6, and maybe BS 6? Sounds fair to me. Just so people dont whine "Ah, primarch, make him expensive!", lets say he can go from 210 to 230 and gains Eternal Warrior. But wait! No invulnerable save? Ok, 20 more points for an Iron Halo.

Boom! Even 250. Heres what we got.

BS WS S T I A W Ld. Sv
5 8 6 6 6 4 4 10 2+/4++

Rules: Eternal Warrior, Smash, Ind. Char. (probably Fearless too, the Tyrant had it) (Move through cover, Tyrant had it, makes sense)

MOAR SPESHUL RULEZ: Ok, Primarchs are gods, lets throw them a bone:

Screw you heretic!: On the charge, they wield unwieldy weapons at full Initiative.

Armorbane. Because Corax picked up a Predator and used its Heavy bolter as a pistol.

Warmaster: Must be warlord, and may choose their trait instead of rolling for it.

May have either Preferred Enemy (Xenos) if Pre H, or PE (CSM/SM) depending on primarch, if H/Post H.

(each primarch may have their own rules, based on whatever their specialty is. Make it up and add points, this is a base.)

Oh, and maybe auto Deny the Witch on a 4+, plus more if a psyker.

Ok, overall, lets call it 275 points. Seems pretty fair, based off a Tyrant, which is a psyker, which primarchs arent. (unless Magnus. add points accordingly)

And... now, wargear!

Pistol, F/K grenades, CCW. Buy wargear as if a Chapter Master.

I appreciate your logic, but your points are too low and the stats need to be higher.

You are attempting to represent genetically-engineered demi-gods who stand above special Independent Characters, hence the Stat line and abilities should surpass.them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Apologies, posting from phone.

In addition to the above, your points costs are very undercosted for what I quoted above.

Afterall, check Logan, Eldrad, Draigo...

**dragon1092**

WS9 BS6 S5 T5 I6 A5 W4 LD10 SV2+/3++

WS9: Guaranteed to be masters of close combat
BS6: They shoot pretty dang well (least important since chances are he won't have some random super high str weapon that he can pop off since most 'strong' ICs are basically CC monsters)
S5: Bigger than the normal SM, but should not be MC sized
T5: ^^ See above
I6: Again, he is pretty good in CC. I liked the rule about using unwieldy weapons at full I, seems realistic-ish (for futuristic purposes)
A5: a lot of attacks base for any model
LD10: Don't even try to argue anything else
SV: Artificier armor and an enhanced iron halo that gives 3++ without needing a storm shield

Some special rules: Preferred enemy (all) since hes a beast at combat
FNP (4+): (hes a primarch he needs to be survivable. Having a good save is great, but having a backup save will help). Also be specific that he always gets this roll so as to clarify against Eternal Warrior/FNP interactions
Eternal Warrior: duh...

Some stuff I thought was good from another guy was:

Warmaster: Must be warlord and may choose their traint instead of rolling for it.
Deny the Witch: 4+ regardless of being a psyker
Armorbane

I don't really know about gear and stuff or points. Just seemed like it made sense for an epic warrior that is superhuman but nonetheless a man (remember that boosting a stat by one is along the lines of being 5 times better in that area than the one below in terms of fluff).

**razor5647**

Perhaps giving him "It will not die" and "eternal warrior" would also fit in?
just a suggestion.

**redkommando**

Or. . . we could just base it of Mephistion. . . He is basicly a Primarch. . .
WS7/BS5/S6/T6/W5/I7/A4/Ld10/Sv2+
Artificer armour, Plasma Pistol, Force sword.
No invun save
250pts. . .
Work from that

Automatically Appended Next Post:
or if your like me, just use The Sanguinor's rules and stats

**Buttons**

redkommando wrote:Or. . . we could just base it of Mephistion. . . He is basicly a Primarch. . .
WS7/BS5/S6/T6/W5/I7/A4/Ld10/Sv2+
Artificer armour, Plasma Pistol, Force sword.
No invun save
250pts. . .
Work from that

Automatically Appended Next Post:
or if your like me, just use The Sanguinor's rules and stats

Honestly just combine the best of the marine characters. So Mephiston, Draigo, Sanguinor, and maybe some other guys I can't think of. After that add in wargear and special rules. Also, most primarchs should get an option for some special bodyguards, like Sanguinius having the option for WS5, I5 Sanguinary Guard, Fulgrim should have some Phoenix Guards, I am sure other chapters have some sort of special guard. If not they can have generic "Primarch Honour Guards."

**jifel**

AvatarForm wrote:
I appreciate your logic, but your points are too low and the stats need to be higher.

You are attempting to represent genetically-engineered demi-gods who stand above special Independent Characters, hence the Stat line and abilities should surpass.them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Apologies, posting from phone.

In addition to the above, your points costs are very undercosted for what I quoted above.

Afterall, check Logan, Eldrad, Draigo...

275 points for a 4 wound model with only a 4++ invulnearble? I didnt think that was undercosted... Lysanders a bit less if I recall, and has a 3++, plus higher Strength. Remember, that with wargear they will probably go over 300 points, thats a lot for a model that can get raped by an IG plasmataxi.

As far as Stats going higher, what exactly? They have great WS/BS, monster Toughness for an IC, great Strength, they should wound all on 2+ even before upgrades. I could see a point being made for Initiative, attacks, and wounds, but that would ramp the cost up accordingly.

**Orblivion**

Sanguinius:

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
10 5 6 6 5 8 5 10 2+

Wargear: Artificer Armour, Frag and Krak Grenades

Spear of Telesto: Two-handed power weapon with the following shooting attack: Template, S5, AP4, Assault 1 (basically a heavy flamer), template can be placed over friendly Codex: Blood Angels units to reflect the gene-coding technology.

Special Rules: Independent Character

Primarch: Grants Eternal Warrior and a 3+ invulnerable save.
Angelic Rage: Sanguinius is subject to the Rage and Fearless special rules.
Psychic Blood: All friendly Codex: Blood Angels units within 12" of Sanguinius are subject to the Furious Charge and Feel No Pain special rules. Any Feel No Pain roll taken for Sanguinius himself is passed on 2+, rather than a 4+.
Foresight: Sanguinius can re-roll all failed rolls To Hit.
Angel's Wings: Sanguinius is treated as having a jump pack and does not scatter when he deep strikes using his wings.

He gets kind of ridiculous in these rules, but I went more for what would fit HIM rather than what would fit the game. I also considered allowing him to use his wings both in the movement phase and assault phase, but other units with real wings don't get this so I decided not to. I know he also has a sword, the Blade Encarmine, but I have never seen anything to indicate that it was anything more than just a regular power sword and I couldn't think of any interesting rules for it.

I don't actually intend to ever put these rules into use but C&C is still welcome, and I have explanations for all of the stats/rules I have given him so if you would like to know the explanations just ask.

**redkommando**

Marik Law wrote:
TheAngrySquig wrote:But its ANGRON. He should be at least S 6 and T 6

I'm basing this off of what little official rules info GW has given this, why rules-wise do you think he, as a mortal, should have S 6 and T 6?

The lore on the subject can't entirely be trusted due to how many contradictions there are concerning the Primarchs and the Emperor himself. Some say they were gods, others (mainly Space Marine chapters with members old enough to remember) say that they (the Primarchs) were just exceptional Space Marines and nothing more. Exceptional does not mean they have the body mass and constitution of a Hive Tyrant.

Another example I can bring to the table is Abaddon. He's rumoued to be the clone son of Horus, which, if true, pretty much means he's physically identical to Horus in every way. If its true than it would confirm that Primarchs, physically, were hardly any different from most high-ranking Space Marines and that their real renown came from their martial prowess, tactical skills, and exploits (and in some cases their wargear). This bit of information, combined with GW's official rules for Angron, would seem to confirm the baseline stats (excluding WS and BS) were about the same as either a Chapter Master or models like Dante, The Sanguinor, and Marneus Calgar.

Actualy coming to think of it, this approach makes sense. I mean we hear all the details of the Primarchs in current(M41), and you can gurentee that the actual facts have been warped to make it seem like the Primarchs were uber awesome,(They were, just not the size of a Tyrant) and the old model for Leman Russ adds to that, yes they were the His Sons, but in the end they were Space Marines. My Perturabo model is only like 4mm taller (in game terms he is like a foot taller) than his marines(not counting the hightened base), and to me, that makes the Primarchs seem more awesome- they did everything that they did and the weren't build like a Battle Barge.

**Marik Law**

redkommando wrote:
Marik Law wrote:
TheAngrySquig wrote:But its ANGRON. He should be at least S 6 and T 6

I'm basing this off of what little official rules info GW has given this, why rules-wise do you think he, as a mortal, should have S 6 and T 6?

The lore on the subject can't entirely be trusted due to how many contradictions there are concerning the Primarchs and the Emperor himself. Some say they were gods, others (mainly Space Marine chapters with members old enough to remember) say that they (the Primarchs) were just exceptional Space Marines and nothing more. Exceptional does not mean they have the body mass and constitution of a Hive Tyrant.

Another example I can bring to the table is Abaddon. He's rumoued to be the clone son of Horus, which, if true, pretty much means he's physically identical to Horus in every way. If its true than it would confirm that Primarchs, physically, were hardly any different from most high-ranking Space Marines and that their real renown came from their martial prowess, tactical skills, and exploits (and in some cases their wargear). This bit of information, combined with GW's official rules for Angron, would seem to confirm the baseline stats (excluding WS and BS) were about the same as either a Chapter Master or models like Dante, The Sanguinor, and Marneus Calgar.

Actualy coming to think of it, this approach makes sense. I mean we hear all the details of the Primarchs in current(M41), and you can gurentee that the actual facts have been warped to make it seem like the Primarchs were uber awesome,(They were, just not the size of a Tyrant) and the old model for Leman Russ adds to that, yes they were the His Sons, but in the end they were Space Marines. My Perturabo model is only like 4mm taller (in game terms he is like a foot taller) than his marines(not counting the hightened base), and to me, that makes the Primarchs seem more awesome- they did everything that they did and the weren't build like a Battle Barge.

Forge World is officially doing a series (seperate from Imperial Armour) based on the Horus Heresy, complete with models and rules for the Primarchs. I can't wait to see how GW/FW actually feels about how strong the Primarchs actually are.

**redkommando**

They are WHAT?? Where does it say that?? I want to see it

**Marik Law**

redkommando wrote:They are WHAT?? Where does it say that?? I want to see it

Only a teaser trailer exists right now, but Forge World officially announced that the series was in the works and will be long-running. From the sounds of it, each Horus Heresy book will have 2-3 Legions in it, complete with rules to play each legion and rules for each Legion's Primarch. The first book is supposed to take place during the early days of the Istvaan Campaign.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/07/40k-news-horus-heresy-is-coming.html

**Nurgle**

You guys need to read my Warhammer 30k post and see the derping and RAAAGGGEE!!!! that was going on if you really dont like this.
Also I love it how you guys compare the Blood Angel dude to a primarch. Mortarion was one of the weaker primarchs between them. Thats not saying he wasnt strong but he wasnt like Angron.
If my brain recalls t one point you could field angron but you required seven blood thirster body guards and it was a total oh like 700 points just for him. This might have been in Epic but still.
(Read the 1d4chan page on him and ignore the Matthew Ward jokes)

"He has stats from white dwarf that makes him a 500 point walking !@#$machine who makes Abaddon the despoiler and Mephiston look like total !@#$%, but you have to get him a bodyguard of at least 7-12 bloodthirsters, which effectively racks up his point cost to over 1300 at the least. But with his mandatory bloodthirster bodyguard he can even kill An'ggrath, the biggest and baddest bloodthirster of them all. But they would never fight in canon because An'ggrath is one of the only entities in the universe that Angron respects due to An'ggrath's equal capacity for RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEEEEEEEGGGG!!!"
-1d4chan

Coming off that I could have gone fanboy like some on this guy but decided not to because my main units get feel no pain already and I dont want to hear any more about how "OP" chaos is from the Grey Knights player.
When I say fanboy I mean giving him the ability to come back from the dead or somthing idk I need to get my trollface on if I am going to make him OP

**Painbiro**

Buttons wrote:Honestly just combine the best of the marine characters. So Mephiston, Draigo, Sanguinor, and maybe some other guys I can't think of. After that add in wargear and special rules. Also, most primarchs should get an option for some special bodyguards, like Sanguinius having the option for WS5, I5 Sanguinary Guard, Fulgrim should have some Phoenix Guards, I am sure other chapters have some sort of special guard. If not they can have generic "Primarch Honour Guards."

I'd love to see pre-Heresy Horus fielded with the Mournival from the books

**TheEverShift**

they would have to be pretty OP as in one of the novels even the weakest primach, was slaughtering hundreds of space marines (i think it was lorgar)

**Nurgle**

TheEverShift wrote:they would have to be pretty OP as in one of the novels even the weakest primach, was slaughtering hundreds of space marines (i think it was lorgar)

lol Logar is and I quote "Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided" <---- Da !@#$???

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AvatarForm wrote:
jifel wrote:Ok, Primarchs! Here we go: Start off with the Hive Tyrant:
170 points + 40 for Armored Shell = 210

BS WS S T I A W Ld. Sv
3 8 6 6 5 4 4 10 2+

Ok, good place to start for a Primarch. But lets Drop the Synapse and Monstrous Creature rules, instead replacing them with, say, Smash (so a power sword armed Primarch can kill a Terminator) and Independent Character. Ok, now lets just fiddle with the stats. How about I. 6, and maybe BS 6? Sounds fair to me. Just so people dont whine "Ah, primarch, make him expensive!", lets say he can go from 210 to 230 and gains Eternal Warrior. But wait! No invulnerable save? Ok, 20 more points for an Iron Halo.

Boom! Even 250. Heres what we got.

BS WS S T I A W Ld. Sv
5 8 6 6 6 4 4 10 2+/4++

Rules: Eternal Warrior, Smash, Ind. Char. (probably Fearless too, the Tyrant had it) (Move through cover, Tyrant had it, makes sense)

MOAR SPESHUL RULEZ: Ok, Primarchs are gods, lets throw them a bone:

Screw you heretic!: On the charge, they wield unwieldy weapons at full Initiative.

Armorbane. Because Corax picked up a Predator and used its Heavy bolter as a pistol.

Warmaster: Must be warlord, and may choose their trait instead of rolling for it.

May have either Preferred Enemy (Xenos) if Pre H, or PE (CSM/SM) depending on primarch, if H/Post H.

(each primarch may have their own rules, based on whatever their specialty is. Make it up and add points, this is a base.)

Oh, and maybe auto Deny the Witch on a 4+, plus more if a psyker.

Ok, overall, lets call it 275 points. Seems pretty fair, based off a Tyrant, which is a psyker, which primarchs arent. (unless Magnus. add points accordingly)

And... now, wargear!

Pistol, F/K grenades, CCW. Buy wargear as if a Chapter Master.

I appreciate your logic, but your points are too low and the stats need to be higher.

You are attempting to represent genetically-engineered demi-gods who stand above special Independent Characters, hence the Stat line and abilities should surpass.them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Apologies, posting from phone.

In addition to the above, your points costs are very undercosted for what I quoted above.

Afterall, check Logan, Eldrad, Draigo...

Some clubs refuse certain models if they are outright broken.
(Draigo wing flyer list for example)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

redkommando wrote:Or. . . we could just base it of Mephistion. . . He is basicly a Primarch. . .
WS7/BS5/S6/T6/W5/I7/A4/Ld10/Sv2+
Artificer armour, Plasma Pistol, Force sword.
No invun save
250pts. . .
Work from that

Automatically Appended Next Post:
or if your like me, just use The Sanguinor's rules and stats

I pray you are just trolling with the Mephistion thing dude.