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OK so I've only had a chance to scan the rules but I was struck by a number of rules which could seriously damage nids in 6th ed.

Positives first, monstrous creatures are now harder but they are still going to get killed by AP1 and 2 weapons so although they are vicious in CC they were anyway and will still doe the same way. Nice to get the uplift though. The harpy should be brutal in 6th ed having been rubbish in 5th ed. Just need a model now!

Negatives as I see it. For my money nids have been holed below the water. The prime reason being allies. Nids cannot ally with anyone, which is quite understandable and fine. However, there is no compensation that I can see. We all know that the likely outcome of allies will be armies tailored to takee best advantage of 2 codecies. SM will pop up with squadrons of Russ demolishers and basilisks, etc. This gives many of the armies a huge opportunity to improve their forces and also allows them to field 3 HQs, and more elites, etc. Nids cannot do this. The way I see it it won't be disastrous at low pts value games but in higher ones nids will get screwed down hard. With plenty of points to playw ith allies will come into their own and allow armies to field some brutal combinations. Nids will still be stuck to FoC and forced to watch enemies put down 3 HQs, 4 elites, etc. Nids are clearly NOT allowed to ally with nids which would have allowed them to take advantage of the rules by fielding more of the nids they would like, 3 hive tyrants would be great.

Secondly fortifications are now a major part of the game and nids cannot fire the weapons in them (it's in the FAQs). So another major part of the new rules will be closed to nids.

Overwatch will conceivably both help and harm, but it will probably on balance be bad for nids with lots of S4, AP5 weapons firing and knocking out enough hormies and stealers to make a difference to nid assaults.

I think the ally thing is going to be critical, in competitive games the lack of this entire angle of the game will cripple nids and make playing them more of a chore. I want to see nids allowed to ally with nids.

Overwatch will conceivably both help and harm, but it will probably on balance be bad for nids with lots of S4, AP5 weapons firing and knocking out enough hormies and stealers to make a difference to nid assauts.l

Math has proven that at best, you'll lose only 2.22 models to 10 marines with overwatch, with fnp it drops to a 1.44, if you cannot weather this your not bringing enough hormies.

Secondly fortifications are now a major part of the game and nids cannot fire the weapons in them (it's in the FAQs). So another major part of the new rules will be closed to nids.

They come with automated defenses as well, those fire at BS2 though.

Nids were always weaker. The difference now is that Nidzilla is SLIGHTLY more viable. The Flying MCs are better, as are those without Str9/10, meaning not carnies. IIRC MCs can now half their attacks to double Str and Str can now rise above 10. This will make Trygons especially good. Half attacks is still 3, and at Str 12 MC attacks is killing even other MCs. Carnies can now go up to Str 19 with Adrenal Glands, AND Feed is now a MAJOR bonus.

I would so no. It is a little too soon to see how all the moving parts are going to work together. I remember when the 5th edition codex came out everyone was drooling over Mawlocs and trygons took a back seat. But in a few months of play it was clear that the trygons was the more competitive unit.

Pretty much what it comes down to is we can't rely on 5th edition tactics and army build. We need to rethink are armies and tactics and I think that in 6 months you will see a number of viable 6th edition army builds and tactics out there.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Math has proven that at best, you'll lose only 2.22 models to 10 marines with overwatch, with fnp it drops to a 1.44, if you cannot weather this your not bringing enough hormies.

Whoa there. At best 10 marines can kill 10 hormagaunts. It's just likely for them to kill 2.22. You also need to plan around other eventualities like flamers or Foreboding, which will up that number consiberably. Luck is a much bigger part of melee than before, and winning is all about how you prepare for various eventualities.

Deadshot wrote:Nids were always weaker. The difference now is that Nidzilla is SLIGHTLY more viable. The Flying MCs are better, as are those without Str9/10, meaning not carnies. IIRC MCs can now half their attacks to double Str and Str can now rise above 10. This will make Trygons especially good. Half attacks is still 3, and at Str 12 MC attacks is killing even other MCs. Carnies can now go up to Str 19 with Adrenal Glands, AND Feed is now a MAJOR bonus.

Whoa there. You can't have a stat above 10. The Smash rule even specifically says that it can't bring strength over 10. So yeah they actually managed to make Fexes worse this edition... who expected that?
Smash does open up possibilities for other MC's though. Trygons have a high attack value, and with vehicles being easier to hit they'll make a short meal of them. Hive Tyrants and such can also use their new S10 attack to very effectively ID certain units in a challenge.

The changes to assault in general means you either want to be sending purely expendable units in, or heavily buffed units like MC's with the backing of several Biomancy powers. Luckily Biomancy is something nids can do well, most 2000pt lists can easily fit in 5+ psykers.

SiUBC. Suck it up buttercup. In other words, oh well, what can we do. I am a tyraind player. Not much we can do now.

So we have a Venomthrope with a BS that it can't use. We have a Brood Lord that should be able to shoot psychic powers but can't since it has no BS. Our CC units took a nerf with the new rules. We get no allies while other races can ally up with someone they shouldn't be able to.

So what do we do? We adapt and play, or we cry, whine and moan.

So SiUBC.

Play 2k points games and open up those Elite slots.

There are endless abuses to be had!

Whoa there. At best 10 marines can kill 10 hormagaunts. It's just likely for them to kill 2.22. You also need to plan around other eventualities like flamers or Foreboding, which will up that number consiberably. Luck is a much bigger part of melee than before, and winning is all about how you prepare for various eventualities.

Oh I know, but people are panicking at the basic thought of normal overwatch, supporting one's charges is something one needs to do, and foreboding isn't to bad if you get a SITW next to said psyker that has it after all.

I wouldn't bother continually pointing it out if people didn't just panic over the basic BS1 shots of overwatch with basic weaponry.

Oh yeah, this is my new work-in-progress list:

New List: 2000 pts

----- HQ -------------------------------
1. The Swarmlord (280pts)- Can roll 4 Biomancy powers in order to get Iron Arm and Warp Speed. Then becomes an insane melee monster with +D3 S, T, A, I plus Fleet and Eternal Warrior. If that's not enough throw on Endurance too for FNP/wound regeneration

----- Troop ----------------------------
1. Hormaguant Brood (184pts) - Largely a suicidal unit there to capitalise on any enemy mistakes. Give them FNP and hope they make their points back with a potential 90+ attacks
- 23x Hormaguant
- 23x Toxin Sacs
2. Termagant Brood (240pts) - There's a bit of a trend here to roll as many dice as possible until stuff dies. These guys have 60 shooting attacks that can be nicely buffed by the Swarmlord's Preferred enemy ability. And thanks to the new reserves system they're arriving turn 2 on a 2+.
- 20x Termagant
- 20x Devourer
- 1x Mycetic Spore
3. Termagant Brood (50pts)
- 10x Termagant
4. Tervigon (200pts) - These guys are here to roll for 3 Biomancy powers each and spit out various buffs. Endurance is the most preferred, and Iron Arm is also useful to make them resilient to heavy weapons when you need it - T8/9 isn't easy to wound!
- 1x Catalyst, 1x Onslaught, 1x Toxin Sacs, 1x Cluster Spines
5. Tervigon (200pts)
- 1x Catalyst, 1x Onslaught, 1x Toxin Sacs, 1x Cluster Spines
6. Genestealer Brood (198pts) - Bit of an experimental unit here. Hopefully the Broodlord will roll Gateway of Infinity or Telekine Dome, then proceed to get up close an personal.
- 8x Genestealer
- 8x Toxin Sacs
- 1x Broodlord
- 1x Scything Talons

----- Elite ----------------------------
1. Ymgarl Genestealer Brood (138pts) - Also experimental, Ymgarls can still assault as they arrive. With good prior placement simply pick the +1 toughness mutation as they arrive to weather any overwatch and have at it. Weaker opponents will be caught out here.
- 6x Ymgarl Genestealer
2. Hive Guard Brood (150pts) - Standard anti-vehicle patrol, here to glance things to death.
- 3x Hive Guard
3. Venomthrope Brood (110pts) - Mobile cover save, largely here as a last resort for MC's
- 2x Venomthrope
4. Zoanthrope (60pts) - Backup psyker in case the others roll badly. If the Terivgons get what they want however, then he's here to experient with other powers

----- Fast Attack ----------------------

----- Heavy Support --------------------
1. Carnifex Brood (190pts) - Backup anti-vehicle patrol, also here to glance things to death.
- 1x Carnifex
- 2x Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin-linked

Milisim wrote:Play 2k points games and open up those Elite slots.

There are endless abuses to be had!

It still requires a 2nd FoC, which means needing the requisite HQ & troop selections first doesn't it? Not really sure what can be "abused" if that's the case.

Well there is nothing wrong with taking 2 HQ's to start and most armies take 4 Troop choices anyways due to scoring units.... Those alone are quite cheap and that still leaves you 6 elite slots now to use and 6 HS choices. as long as you come in at 2k total its legal.

How do you not see that as being abusive? We used to play 2k Games and run out of slots now we can take the good stuff instead of some crappy FA slots or whatnot just to get to 2k.

Im not saying its abusive just for nids.... Everyone can now spam the hell out of those units with ease.

GW could start selling turd sandwiches and we'd have lines of fanboys on the forums saying, "No, you just need to put more ketchup on it", "All you have to do is get drunk first", "at worst you'll get hepatitis and there's treament for it, suck it up"

Tyranids have been in a bad place for years, they just got shat on and will be in a worse place for years to come. That is all.

This is im afraid the fate of all Xenos players eventually.

They become the red headed step child and are left to wither on the side lines.

Look at DE they went from last years whoo hoo army to relegated to the mid tier. Necrons are the new shiny and get boosted to hell. Guess what... They'll get nerfed soon enough and the cycle begins again. Codex space Marines will come out soon like always, and in it theyll have some armour upgrade that ignored glances etc... that will nerf the necrons and boost the almighty SM again. Rinse repeat....

WOW such honesty 60mm... refreshing

It occurs to me now that another positive is that the hive tyrant can challenge enemy leaders. Since he is among the more brutal fighters and strong to boot this is going to be very handy. Imagine the Eldar player's face when the tyrant calls out his autarch who is T3 and is therefore insta-kill fodder! The harpy will be vile as well.

Reading the FAQ nids in buildings will not have to take IB tests even if they are out of synapse - I wonder why?

Also would have liked to see rage extended to more nids than just those with Feed who fail the IB test, it would make a nice boost for hormies and stealers.

Still certain the allies ting is the killer though, scoring units or not, enemy armies with the right 2 codecies mixed will be able to table a standard nid army with decent thought and tactics just due to having the flexibility and access to such powerful combinations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I submit that nids need a harpy model yesterday to take advantage of the key advantage they have gained in this edition. I trust it will be in the second fliers wave along with the Eldar one, etc.

xttz wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Math has proven that at best, you'll lose only 2.22 models to 10 marines with overwatch, with fnp it drops to a 1.44, if you cannot weather this your not bringing enough hormies.

Whoa there. At best 10 marines can kill 10 hormagaunts. It's just likely for them to kill 2.22. You also need to plan around other eventualities like flamers or Foreboding, which will up that number consiberably. Luck is a much bigger part of melee than before, and winning is all about how you prepare for various eventualities.

Deadshot wrote:Nids were always weaker. The difference now is that Nidzilla is SLIGHTLY more viable. The Flying MCs are better, as are those without Str9/10, meaning not carnies. IIRC MCs can now half their attacks to double Str and Str can now rise above 10. This will make Trygons especially good. Half attacks is still 3, and at Str 12 MC attacks is killing even other MCs. Carnies can now go up to Str 19 with Adrenal Glands, AND Feed is now a MAJOR bonus.

Whoa there. You can't have a stat above 10. The Smash rule even specifically says that it can't bring strength over 10. So yeah they actually managed to make Fexes worse this edition... who expected that?
Smash does open up possibilities for other MC's though. Trygons have a high attack value, and with vehicles being easier to hit they'll make a short meal of them. Hive Tyrants and such can also use their new S10 attack to very effectively ID certain units in a challenge.

The changes to assault in general means you either want to be sending purely expendable units in, or heavily buffed units like MC's with the backing of several Biomancy powers. Luckily Biomancy is something nids can do well, most 2000pt lists can easily fit in 5+ psykers.

Forgive me. I was told Str can now exceed 10

Milisim wrote:This is im afraid the fate of all Xenos players eventually.
They become the red headed step child and are left to wither on the side lines.

Not if Mat Ward wrote the Xenos Codex Necrons). Noticed that Mat Ward wrote the rulebook and all his Codices got buffed and almost all others (except Space Wolves and IG) got nerfed? Coincidence?

@ Deadshot, all you have to do is prove a page number. Sorry being told of something is not good enough. You have to Prove it.

Do you know the page number or where in the Errata/FAQ says this?

Milisim wrote:Well there is nothing wrong with taking 2 HQ's to start and most armies take 4 Troop choices anyways due to scoring units.... Those alone are quite cheap and that still leaves you 6 elite slots now to use and 6 HS choices. as long as you come in at 2k total its legal.

How do you not see that as being abusive? We used to play 2k Games and run out of slots now we can take the good stuff instead of some crappy FA slots or whatnot just to get to 2k.

Im not saying its abusive just for nids.... Everyone can now spam the hell out of those units with ease.

But everyone can do it...

I mean, it's not only giving the Tyranids extra slots. What if the IGuard player is suddenly spamming 6 Heavy Support slots? You may be just as screwed as you were before, just with fancier models being splattered all over the ground.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:

Milisim wrote:This is im afraid the fate of all Xenos players eventually.
They become the red headed step child and are left to wither on the side lines.

Not if Mat Ward wrote the Xenos Codex Necrons). Noticed that Mat Ward wrote the rulebook and all his Codices got buffed and almost all others (except Space Wolves and IG) got nerfed? Coincidence?

Ward wrote C:GK and most of their players are screaming "Nerf!" right now.

Stop invoking Mat Ward as if it's some kind of catch-all argument winner. Good friggin' lord.

Kroothawk wrote:

Milisim wrote:This is im afraid the fate of all Xenos players eventually.
They become the red headed step child and are left to wither on the side lines.

Not if Mat Ward wrote the Xenos Codex Necrons). Noticed that Mat Ward wrote the rulebook and all his Codices got buffed and almost all others (except Space Wolves and IG) got nerfed? Coincidence?

Chaos Daemons gained
CSM gained.

Ward has written the bulk of the recent codices and these have been designed with 6th ed in mind. I don't see a conspiracy there at all, the upcoming codices will be more 6th ed friendly too. Necrons for example would have been rubbish in their old form. GK have been taken down a peg, the winners in this are Blood Angels who are without argument the strongest codex now with their ally possibilities (IMHO).

Davor wrote:@ Deadshot, all you have to do is prove a page number. Sorry being told of something is not good enough. You have to Prove it.

Do you know the page number or where in the Errata/FAQ says this?

Don't have the rulebook. I saw on one of the 6th threads someone saying "Str can exceed 10 so PK Bosses are now Str 11 on the Charge"

Just as well it can't. Otherwise we'd have Str 25 Dreadknights (Str 6 standard, doubled to 12 with a Hammer, 24 with that 1/2 Int, 2x Str and +1 for Hammerhand.)

I would say Tyranids have been massively buffed.

Zoanthropes are now awesome thanks to the new psychic powers they can take. Psychic Screech spam here I come.

Flyrants and Harpies are now officially the bees knees. Vector Strike, increased survivability, being able to attack flyers in CC...Ouch.

Anything with IB: Feed has got a buff, just keep them out of Synapse and let the games begin.

Gargoyles and Shrikes are even better now.

Boneswords still pierce all armour. Heh heh heh.

Little hidden buff: No Retreat getting the axe makes fearless a straight-up buff. And Tyranids can potentially have fearless on every unit in their army.

I disagree that we got screwed by the new rules, see the the posts above.
We got some great buffs. With the changes to rage and fearless, synapse is a powerful tool. We can get nasty with access to psychic powers and we still have shadow in the warp to shut enemy psykers down.

Best of all, boneswords! Ignore all saves pseudo force weapon. One of the best close combat weapons in the game now.

Now if only I can find a way to get raveners outflanking to use the new acute senses. Move 12" ingoring all terrain with a fleeting charge? Yes Please!

EDIT: Oh looks like you cant assault out of reserve anymore (haven't read past battlefield terrain yet!), that sucks but I can live with it.

at over 2k points you can potentially have 10 tervigons and spit out an average of 105 termagants a turn untill you start rolling those doubles. also gives you 10 psykers so you could have all kinds of combinations of powers there. Might have some potential for abuse here.

Played a 1500 point IG vs Nids today. My IG got absolutely shredded. This is with a hybrid mech list that had massive amounts of firepower and was tuned very well. Nids are very dangerous now. Flyrants are a true terror on the board now. Two Flyrants are a nightmare.

Isengard wrote:It occurs to me now that another positive is that the hive tyrant can challenge enemy leaders. Since he is among the more brutal fighters and strong to boot this is going to be very handy. Imagine the Eldar player's face when the tyrant calls out his autarch who is T3 and is therefore insta-kill fodder! The harpy will be vile as well.

I can't find anywhere in the rule book or FAQ that stats that a Tyrant is a character, and it can therefore not challenge anything, am I blind?

Edit:
For that matter isn't tyranid prime, our only character?

DKvistS wrote:

Isengard wrote:It occurs to me now that another positive is that the hive tyrant can challenge enemy leaders. Since he is among the more brutal fighters and strong to boot this is going to be very handy. Imagine the Eldar player's face when the tyrant calls out his autarch who is T3 and is therefore insta-kill fodder! The harpy will be vile as well.

I can't find anywhere in the rule book or FAQ that stats that a Tyrant is a character, and it can therefore not challenge anything, am I blind?

Edit:
For that matter isn't tyranid prime, our only character?

There's a summary in the back of the rulebook that clarifies the types of several units. It adds ch to the Hive Tyrant and Swarmlord.

Deathleaper, Swarmlord, OOE, Doom and Parasite are Characters. As is Tyranid Prime