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So let me get this straight.

Say I have a terminator captain lead the charge [so to speak, not actually in cc] for a tactical squad, so he's right in front. Closest model to the enemy.

The enemy scores a bunch of wounds from, say, lasguns. Ten of them.

I have to roll his save 1 at a time until he ends up dead, right? So I'm making a 2+ armor save for all of them, unless I die.

BUT, for each unsaved wound I take, I can make a look out sir! roll and on a 2+ the wound goes to someone else in the squad, effectively letting the entire squad benefit from my 2+ armor save?

And in cc it appears to be the same way - as long as the IC is in btb somewhere and thus is also a "closest model" because he's as close as any other, I can allocate wounds to his 2+ save, then use Look out Sir! to pawn the wounds he fails onto other guys?

Yeah that's not rigged....

At the same time, you are risking your character taking all of the shots. Eventually that will bite you.

That's not correct.

In a unit with multiple saves, you allocate wounds one at a time. If you allocate a wound to a character, you can use Look Out Sir to try to reallocate that wound to another model. That model then gets to make a save.

If you allocate a wound to your character in terminator armor, then roll your save, it's too late to use Look Out Sir.

And look out sir is 4+. Then the wound is resolved against them instead. It gives you a better chance of not losing your character because he's right up front, but at the same time, it's really only 50/50 that you can transfer that wound with look out sir.

Look out sir for IC's is 2+

kmdl1066 wrote:Look out sir for IC's is 2+

Oh yes, that's right...forgot about that for IC's...so many new rules.

It says when a wound or unsaved wound is allocated.

How wound an unsaved wound be moved to another model via Look Out Sir unless I'd already made a save for it?

Spellbound wrote:It says when a wound or unsaved wound is allocated.

How wound an unsaved wound be moved to another model via Look Out Sir unless I'd already made a save for it?

If a unit has the same save against attacks, you roll all the saves at once and then allocate wounds. In this case, you are allocating unsaved wounds.

If a unit has different saves, you allocate wounds and then roll for saves.

elrabin wrote:

Spellbound wrote:It says when a wound or unsaved wound is allocated.

How wound an unsaved wound be moved to another model via Look Out Sir unless I'd already made a save for it?

If a unit has the same save against attacks, you roll all the saves at once and then allocate wounds. In this case, you are allocating unsaved wounds.

If a unit has different saves, you allocate wounds and then roll for saves.

elrabin has it right from what I've seen. There's basically two ways that wound allocation works in 6th, and it's based on whether a unit has mixed saves and/or characters.

Spellbound wrote:So let me get this straight.

Say I have a terminator captain lead the charge [so to speak, not actually in cc] for a tactical squad, so he's right in front. Closest model to the enemy.

The enemy scores a bunch of wounds from, say, lasguns. Ten of them.

I have to roll his save 1 at a time until he ends up dead, right? So I'm making a 2+ armor save for all of them, unless I die.

BUT, for each unsaved wound I take, I can make a look out sir! roll and on a 2+ the wound goes to someone else in the squad, effectively letting the entire squad benefit from my 2+ armor save?

And in cc it appears to be the same way - as long as the IC is in btb somewhere and thus is also a "closest model" because he's as close as any other, I can allocate wounds to his 2+ save, then use Look out Sir! to pawn the wounds he fails onto other guys?

Yeah that's not rigged....

On page 15 under mixed saves, this description is correct.

kmdl1066 wrote:Look out sir for IC's is 2+

Please note:

Look Out sir for normal units protecting an IC is 4+
Look out Sir for an IC protecting another IC is 2+


So, what this means is:

If I have an IC out front and I want to pass a wound off to someone in the unit, I need a 4+ to transfer the wound to the unit
If I have the unit out front and I want to transfer the wound to my IC instead, I need a 2+ to transfer the wound to the IC.

In either case, you transfer the wound prior to making your armor save.

Green is Best! wrote:

kmdl1066 wrote:Look out sir for IC's is 2+

Please note:

Look Out sir for normal units protecting an IC is 4+
Look out Sir for an IC protecting another IC is 2+


So, what this means is:

If I have an IC out front and I want to pass a wound off to someone in the unit, I need a 4+ to transfer the wound to the unit
If I have the unit out front and I want to transfer the wound to my IC instead, I need a 2+ to transfer the wound to the IC.

In either case, you transfer the wound prior to making your armor save.

You seem to have misread the rule. LOS is actually rolled for by the model that has the wound originally allocated to him.

So if an IC has a wound allocated to him he's able to take a LOS roll and passes on a 2+.

A regular character (non IC) that has a wound allocated to him only passes the LOS roll on a 4+.

It makes absolutely no difference where the wound gets allocated TO via the Look Out Sir rule.

You can look out, sir! either a saved OR unsaved wound, as per how the rule reads. The BRB goes through a few different wound allocation methods that are all legal.

So yes, your above theory works but here is the trick that re-balances the game in your opponent's favor:

The SHOOTING player gets to tell the Defending player which wounds to save first. See this melta gun wound right here? Take your 4++ invuln on that before running through all these laspistol shots.

Also leading the charge puts him in direct threat of heavy weapon lascannon teams, melta-vet chimeras, fire dragon squads, basically anything that is geared to roast terminator armor will get him first. Against small arms it is a great boon to have a 2+ in front...against anything else is a way to potentially lose a character.

Addendum - Yes independant characters can throw off a wound on a 2+ roll, so the 'melta' hit will likely get transferred to a different model. Perhaps a better tactic would be to reposition your shooting models so that the TDA IC isn't the closest model, and take out his lackeys before firing a lascannon down his throat.

The answer is yes until your character dies

LOS is taken before rolling a save.

The option to Look Out Sir an unsaved wound applies only when the character has the same save as the unit. I had to figure this out since I asked a very similar question in this thread ( http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458803.page). I came about this conclusion because you cannot normally allocate an unsaved wound as the name of the wound itself already says you rolled a save for. The only way this can happen is if the character has the same save as the rest of the unit, so all of the saves are then rolled in one go, and the wounds are allocated to the models closest to the shooting. In order for an unsaved wound to be allocated, the character has to be the closest or one of the closest models to the source of the shooting. If the character has a different save to the rest of the unit, and is the closest model to the source of the shooting, he can only Look Out Sir away wounds before he rolls his save (if any).

There is no such thing as an unsaved wound. LOS takes place at wound allocation, even if the character would not get a save he still gets a LOS. And there is nothing prohibiting a mixed armor LOS. Wounds are allocated in order of closest to furthest. Here is an example.

Term IC with a Tac squad. Term is closest

The oppenet scores a melta ap1 and 3 bolter wounds.

He chooses to allocate the melta ap1 first because it can id and the term only gets a 5+. You use lookout sir and are lucky an MEQ eats it.
Then your character takes all 3 bolter wounds on a 2+ save.

Well, we have 2 different LOS going on here. It cannot be a 2+ both ways when an IC is involved. I could care less which way it goes as long as it is universally applied.

So, is it 2+ for the IC to try to take the save for someone else or is it 2+ for someone to take the save off the IC?

Opps.

just wondering, what denotes a no IC character? Would a pain boy, or a mekboy qualify?

elrabin wrote:That's not correct.

In a unit with multiple saves, you allocate wounds one at a time. If you allocate a wound to a character, you can use Look Out Sir to try to reallocate that wound to another model. That model then gets to make a save.

If you allocate a wound to your character in terminator armor, then roll your save, it's too late to use Look Out Sir.

Ah ha! Not the silly abusiveness I thought then.


Mixed Saves, allocate all wounds, decide whether or not to use Look Out Sir, then roll for saves.
Same Saves, roll for saves, allocated unsaved wounds, decide if you want to displace a wound by using Look Out Sir.


Edited to add - Wait a minute. In the case of mixed saves, how are wounds allocated though? I thought the closest models die first. Which means we shouldn't be spreading out wounds like in 5th, where each model in the squad had to be allocated a wound before it was allocated a second wound.

Ok put in simple terms for mixed saves termi in front chumps behind:

1) You take 5 wounds, termi is clearly closest model
2) You take ONE wound from the pool allocate it to the closest model (termi in this case.) You can either A) Take the Termis armor save OR B) take a look out sir and pawn the wound off to another model within 6" and resolve that models save(s) (if it gets any.)
3)repeat step 2 until 0 wounds in the pool remain.

Ah, that makes sense, thank you. I wrote "allocate all wounds" when elrabin and you really said "one at a time".

Green is Best! wrote:Well, we have 2 different LOS going on here. It cannot be a 2+ both ways when an IC is involved. I could care less which way it goes as long as it is universally applied.

So, is it 2+ for the IC to try to take the save for someone else or is it 2+ for someone to take the save off the IC?

It's called "Look out Sir" not "Look out Pleb" or "Look out Private"

If a wound is allocated to a space marine sergeant (sp?) with a fist, then a bolter dude can take the wound on a 4+.

There's two different wound allocation schemes, one for mixed saves, one for non-mixed saves. For mixed saves, you roll the dude in front first. If that happens to be an IC, you can re-allocate the wound (before saves are rolled) on a 2+ using "Look out Sir". If it's a non-independant character, you can use "Look out Sir" on a 4+. For identical saves, you roll all your saves together then start losing models from the front. If you are about to apply a wound to an IC or Character, you get the appropriate "Look out Sir" roll.

A Character or Independant Character cannot step infront of a shot to save one of the plebs (unless I missed that part of the "Look out Sir" rule. I'll double check right now)

Edit: I just checked and I am indeed correct. Go re-read the "Look out Sir" rule.

Multra wrote:Ok put in simple terms for mixed saves termi in front chumps behind:

1) You take 5 wounds, termi is clearly closest model
2) You take ONE wound from the pool allocate it to the closest model (termi in this case.) You can either A) Take the Termis armor save OR B) take a look out sir and pawn the wound off to another model within 6" and resolve that models save(s) (if it gets any.)
3)repeat step 2 until 0 wounds in the pool remain.

Good stuff. This could be cut and pasted in like 10 threads right now. Not sure why this is so hard for some. All, let go of fifth edition...

Joe Mama wrote:
Wait a minute. In the case of mixed saves, how are wounds allocated though? I thought the closest models die first. Which means we shouldn't be spreading out wounds like in 5th, where each model in the squad had to be allocated a wound before it was allocated a second wound.

Bingo. The closest models bite the dust. Which means that your planned assault unit gets whittled out of charge range by overwatch fire. Opposite of the old rules, where you would take the guys from the back.

You can LOS a wound onto a model within 6" Each wound can be reallocated via LOS once. The rules as written mean the model that takes the wound will always have taken the right save. In reality, the "same save" rules are a quick version of the "mixed save" rules, as all identical saves can be taken together.

Now this WOULD work for Tyranids who has a Tyrant at the front with Armored Shell

OR Space Puppies who have a Wolfguard in Termi Armour at the front of the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cus they aren't IC's right?

Bloodhorror wrote:Now this WOULD work for Tyranids who has a Tyrant at the front with Armored Shell

OR Space Puppies who have a Wolfguard in Termi Armour at the front of the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cus they aren't IC's right?

Tyrants with Tyrant Guard count as ICs for some purposes per the FAQ.

Wolfguard are regular characters.

So it still works like this:

Multra wrote:Ok put in simple terms for mixed saves termi in front chumps behind:

1) You take 5 wounds, termi is clearly closest model
2) You take ONE wound from the pool allocate it to the closest model (termi in this case.) You can either A) Take the Termis armor save OR B) take a look out sir and pawn the wound off to another model within 6" and resolve that models save(s) (if it gets any.)
3)repeat step 2 until 0 wounds in the pool remain.

Honestly, future printings of the book should have that quoted text in it.

We played three test games this weekend and slowly built up more and more units to add in rules. This happened in our second game.

As soon as we figured out the IC could absorb a rediculous amount of fire power, we resulted to just moving better so he wasn't in front if the weapon of choice suited... or, we positioned so that he was up front and fired the appropriate weapons at him so he didn't get a save and used LoS, which, then the unit took all the damage anyway... or, we we just took it into consideration as we continued to move so the character wasn't the closest. A single terminator on foot has a heck of a time dancing around a unit when there are skimming bikes, deep striking units, fast moving vehicles and fliers all over the field.

As you play a few games in 6e, it's just going to be another tactic to consider as you navigate the field.

loreweaver wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:Well, we have 2 different LOS going on here. It cannot be a 2+ both ways when an IC is involved. I could care less which way it goes as long as it is universally applied.

So, is it 2+ for the IC to try to take the save for someone else or is it 2+ for someone to take the save off the IC?

It's called "Look out Sir" not "Look out Pleb" or "Look out Private"

If a wound is allocated to a space marine sergeant (sp?) with a fist, then a bolter dude can take the wound on a 4+.

There's two different wound allocation schemes, one for mixed saves, one for non-mixed saves. For mixed saves, you roll the dude in front first. If that happens to be an IC, you can re-allocate the wound (before saves are rolled) on a 2+ using "Look out Sir". If it's a non-independant character, you can use "Look out Sir" on a 4+. For identical saves, you roll all your saves together then start losing models from the front. If you are about to apply a wound to an IC or Character, you get the appropriate "Look out Sir" roll.

A Character or Independant Character cannot step infront of a shot to save one of the plebs (unless I missed that part of the "Look out Sir" rule. I'll double check right now)

Edit: I just checked and I am indeed correct. Go re-read the "Look out Sir" rule.

If you want to allocate the wound off an IC to another member in the squad, it is 4+ to do so. It then says that ICs can also perform Look Out Sir, and later in the book says they pass this on a 2+.

So, if your IC is taking the wound, it allocates off on a 4+ to the squad. If you have another IC in the unit, you can allocate it to that IC on a 2+.

\

Look Out, Sir rolls are 4+ for Characters, no matter who you allocate the wound to. Look Out, Sir rolls for Characters that are Independent Characters are 2+, regardless who gets the allocated wound. See page 16, 26 and 39.