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Before we try to do this topic again PLEASE REFRAIN from calling people cheaters, name calling, or anything else that will get this thread lock. Please remain civil to one another.

Now the question at hand is "do missle launchers get the Flakk rule that has the skyfire rule?".

First thing to note is that on page 57 in the marin rule book it says "All missle launchers come with frag and krak missles as standard, and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missles."
I am leaning towards the Missle Launchers in deed getting the Flakk Missle because on page 414 the Eldar Missle Launcher does not have the "option to upgrade to flakk" it is still a missle launcher though for all intense and purposes, but does not get the standard Frag that other ML's get since that get the plasma...a little bit of contradiction from page 57. Now on page 415 under the normal ML profile you will note that there is the option of Flakk listed in the profile. This means that all units that equip the Missle Launcher gets Flakk Missles - Eldar Missle Launcher does not.


The 2nd thing to note is no codex has listed any amendment concerning flakk missles, but leave us with this phrase "Note that this is an older Codex written for a previous edition of rules. You will therefore need to consult the reference section of the warhammer 40,000 rule book for an up to date list of Unit Types and Vehicle Hull Points. You'll also find that some of the weapons in this Codex have been written out longhand, rather than using the weapon profile used in the Warhammer 40k rule book. Don't worry - these are functionally identical, unless noted otherwise in this document.
Now here is the tricky part. I think ML's get the Flakk profile based on this amendment do to the fact that the is no noted indication in the FAQ stateing that the ML remains the same as whats in the codex. What this means to me is that I need to go by the Main rule books rules for the ML - and as stated in this amendment it says to refrence the refrence section on page 415 for unit types, hull points and continues the next sentence to include weapons. The two sentences are tied together because they are side by side, and a new paragraph is not started...basicly GW assumes the reader is smart enough to know the weapons are in the refreance section based on the previous sentence.

So I am realling leaning towards yes the Missle Launchers do in fact get Flakk missles, but not all get them like the Eldar Missle Launcher, therefore, is why GW uses the words "some have the option to upgrade."

Again please feel free to converate about this topic, but please do not get out of hand and get the thread locked. I have presented some pretty solid information to present my case in favor of the use of Flakk Missles.

The Mawcannon profile as listed in the Appendix in the main rulebook includes all three firing options even though the Soul Grinder is required to pay points for two of them. So if the profile in the appendix is all that's required the Soul Grinder now gets all three firing modes for free.

and the heavy stubber is ap- not 6 like its supposed to be too lol

but i do agree that all ML get the 3 fire modes, this is prob how were gonna play it

"All missle launchers come with frag and krak missles as standard, and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles"
If you can't glean what that rule means, you need to brush up on your English comprehension. It's obvious that normal Missile Launchers can NOT take Flakk Missiles.

Testify wrote:"All missle launchers come with frag and krak missles as standard, and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles"
If you can't glean what that rule means, you need to brush up on your English comprehension. It's obvious that normal Missile Launchers can NOT take Flakk Missiles.

you need to learn to be more polite, if you cant glean what that means you need to brush up on your english language.

but anyway, you are entitled to your opinion, and you can play it your way in your area, i think its "obvious" that all missile launchers get them and have the option to upgrade to have them, some dont... like the cyclone and typhoon for example as they are not actually missile launchers per say.

If you dont agree fair enough, just dont come across all superior like you know everything and everyone else is an idiot.

Page 7, last paragraph: "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this book and one printed in a Codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence."

Do you see a Flakk missile Profile in any codex, Printed in book form or via the Amendments from the FAQs?

No Flakk for any current armies.

Just like there are no current very bulky, or extremely bulky units; and several other rules I can't be arsed to spit out right now.

"and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles"

Unless something states that it can have the upgrade for free. I'm inclined to deny anyone I play with from using them as there is no associated or known point cost for the upgrade and no information on who can upgrade them (infantry or tanks).

Also how convenient that only the Imperium now has the ability to mass spam Skyfire weapons against everyone...gotta keep them space marine Rocket spammers happy right? Cant have people with flyers around for long. I know what my allies will be with Tau.

Riker210 wrote:"and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles"

Unless something states that it can have the upgrade for free. I'm inclined to deny anyone I play with from using them as there is no associated or known point cost for the upgrade and no information on who can upgrade them (infantry or tanks).

Also how convenient that only the Imperium now has the ability to mass spam Skyfire weapons against everyone...gotta keep them space marine Rocket spammers happy right? Cant have people with flyers around for long. I know what my allies will be with Tau.

dont eldar have ML's? tau dont... do dark eldar? i can see your point though

I'm inclined to say that Missile Launchers cannot use Flakk by default. The "option to upgrade" clause and the precedence set by Mawcannons is fairly convincing to me.

However, although I don't think anyone can use Flakk missiles, I do think it's stupid to make flyers strong, fast, and survivable, then give nobody anti-air options except other flyers, fortifications, and/or allies (all of which greatly limit list-building for "all-comers" lists), then tease everyone with a nice, infantry-based anti-air option that no one can use.

Didn't an identical thread get locked earlier today due to going in circles (and some rudeness on the posters)? Can we at least wait a day or two before bringing up a topic that has been locked?

Agreed with the Negative side so far. If you do not have the option to take Flakk missiles, then you can't use them. Dead simple. The fact that they're in the Reference section means nothing, as has been pointed out with the Mawcannon example.

Formosa wrote:

Testify wrote:"All missle launchers come with frag and krak missles as standard, and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles"
If you can't glean what that rule means, you need to brush up on your English comprehension. It's obvious that normal Missile Launchers can NOT take Flakk Missiles.

you need to learn to be more polite, if you cant glean what that means you need to brush up on your english language.

but anyway, you are entitled to your opinion, and you can play it your way in your area, i think its "obvious" that all missile launchers get them and have the option to upgrade to have them, some dont... like the cyclone and typhoon for example as they are not actually missile launchers per say.

If you dont agree fair enough, just dont come across all superior like you know everything and everyone else is an idiot.

Okay...
Why would it say "some have the option to take them" if they could all take them?
It explicitly says "all x are a and b, and some are c". Why would you assume that they're all c? It's bizarre.

Maybe Im blind but did anyone see anything with Skyfire in the profile besides space marine/IG ML?

Hydra Autocannon has it listed I believe.

Like someone already pointed out. When someone can provide a codex or faq saying they can have it along with a point cost then cool. Till then I won't accept it. I'm not going to try it.

Chrysis wrote:Hydra Autocannon has it listed I believe.

Thats a fortification weapon though, no?

No, the Quad gun is a fortification. Hydra Autocannon is the main weapon for the Hydra.

After looking between both FAQ and BRB i believe that they may come with flakk standard when they get there new edition when it comes out or if they create a new FAQ.

But not at the moment.

Happyjew wrote:Didn't an identical thread get locked earlier today due to going in circles (and some rudeness on the posters)?

Yes

Chrysis wrote:The Mawcannon profile as listed in the Appendix in the main rulebook includes all three firing options even though the Soul Grinder is required to pay points for two of them. So if the profile in the appendix is all that's required the Soul Grinder now gets all three firing modes for free.

This right here (and it is not the only example of the same concept) is why I believe it is not intended for ML's to have flakk as standard. Given how aggressively both sides of the argument pursued the issue in the last thread though, I can't see any amount of discussion resolving this until an official FAQ/errata.

To claim Flakk missiles come standard on on basic Missile Launchers is to claim one of two things:

- GW made a huge sentence long typo when they were talking about some missiles having the OPTION to UPGRADE, when they in reality meant all missile launchers have the Flakk option.

OR

- The English language has changed recently so that "optional" and "comes standard on" mean exactly the same thing. As in "Spoiler, Flames painted on the side, and Nitro Turbo Boost are optional on the Honda Civic" means every Honda Civic comes with a Spoiler, Flames, and Turbo Boost.

and this is opinion of course, but should we go by the profile or the description?

profile Multilaser is AP-

codex says AP6

description does not say all Multilasers have been changed to AP-

(this is the same for Missle Launchers) is the description fluff based?

and there are several upgrades i can take for free ( lasistol for lasgun, lasgun for shotgun, etc.)

Not that i agree (think you'll have to wait for update 1.1 at least) just stating that GW needs to do their jobs and provide an accurate FAQ so we can play the stupid game already.

Anyone else notice it's the people who play Tyranids/Necrons/Dark Eldar that are making the rude responses? lol.

i thought it would have been Necron players as they have the most to lose here

RegulusBlack wrote:i thought it would have been Necron players as they have the most to lose here

FMCs benefit from the "6s to hit" rule, and Dark Eldar players seem protective of it, too.

I play Space Marines, I suppose I should be too, but that Goldfish is underwhelming. 2 Weapons for 130pts, when most other flyers get more.

Blah.

kmdl1066 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Didn't an identical thread get locked earlier today due to going in circles (and some rudeness on the posters)?

Yes

It got locked because people were being rude to one another. Please refrain from rudeness in this thread so we can figure this out. I presented some pretty good evidence in the OP as to why I think they get them. Page 7 in the main rule book is not talking about this specific case. The page 7 entry is talking about something like a stealth rule gives a player x cover save, but a codex might contradict that and say the stealth rule for x model gets and extra +1 to his cover save. Saying the weapons are contradictory is a long stretch when that page says the codex trumphs BRB, and FAQ trumps Codex, and the FAQ tells us to go off of the profile in the refrence section that lists all 3 types of ammo.

RegulusBlack wrote:profile Multilaser is AP-

codex says AP6

No matter what the description or the new BRB says for the profile; you go by the Codex; as I already Cited.

As no codex currently list a Missile launcher with Flakk; No missile launchers currently fire Flakk.

I am both an IG and A Space Marine Player, Both myself, and a few of my most common opponents field Flyers(Valk/Vend for me, Storm Raven for my BA friend, razorwing/voidraven for my DE friend); so I actually have the most to lose from my statements(especially with my ML dev squads, or ML HWteams).

RegulusBlack wrote:
and there are several upgrades i can take for free ( lasistol for lasgun, lasgun for shotgun, etc.)

It's worth pointing out that none of those upgrades are actually free. True, they don't cost extra points, but you do have to give up certain abilities or options to take them. If you take a shotgun instead of a lasgun you lose range and can no longer take part in FRFSRF orders. There's an opportunity cost involved in all of them. An option without a points or opportunity cost isn't really optional as there's no reason to ever turn it down. How many codexes include something like "A model may take item X for free" where item X has no downsides? I can't think of any at all.

It's possible that the Flakk missile upgrade won't cost any points, but will prevent you from firing Frag or Krak missiles. Until they say who has the option of firing Flakk missiles and what it costs, all we can infer is that no one currently has the option

Kommissar Kel wrote:

RegulusBlack wrote:profile Multilaser is AP-

codex says AP6

No matter what the description or the new BRB says for the profile; you go by the Codex; as I already Cited.

As no codex currently list a Missile launcher with Flakk; No missile launchers currently fire Flakk.

I am both an IG and A Space Marine Player, Both myself, and a few of my most common opponents field Flyers(Valk/Vend for me, Storm Raven for my BA friend, razorwing/voidraven for my DE friend); so I actually have the most to lose from my statements(especially with my ML dev squads, or ML HWteams).

You are missing this part of the FAQ Ammendment

The 2nd thing to note is no codex has listed any amendment concerning flakk missles, but leave us with this phrase "Note that this is an older Codex written for a previous edition of rules. You will therefore need to consult the reference section of the warhammer 40,000 rule book for an up to date list of Unit Types and Vehicle Hull Points. You'll also find that some of the weapons in this Codex have been written out longhand, rather than using the weapon profile used in the Warhammer 40k rule book. Don't worry - these are functionally identical, unless noted otherwise in this document.

This means that the rulebook and the codex now function identical meaning 3 types of ammo for ML as per refrence section sence there is not any other information in the FAQ.

Nah, let's ignore the fact that Flakk Rockets sounds like an Ork weapon.

Clearly GW decided that every Soulgrinder needed to get 50 points of upgrades for free, by listing the profiles in the main rulebook.