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So basically the only ways I can think of are the fortifications and allying up, any thought of the best allies, or just other ideas you may have discovered !

Can't all missile launchers fire flakk missiles? S7 AP4 anti air?

BronzeJon wrote:Can't all missile launchers fire flakk missiles? S7 AP4 anti air?

The rulebook pretty clearly states flakk missiles are a purchasable upgrade for certain missile launchers. You don't get it for free, and I'm not sure Long Fangs can get them unless they were FAQ'd.

If i recall correctly, the Long Fangs cannot take flakk missiles because it is an upgrade which in the FAQ the space wolves cannot get.

Nobody can get flakk missile launchers yet. But seriously, why do people think that you need to fire at full BS to kill flyers. Weight of fire and twin linking are you friends.

Most of the new flyers are AV10 or 11.

Landraider Crusaders. Everything is TL and it can move 12 and snap fire every gun it has. 6 or 12 bolt guns, 4 assault cannon shots, 1 MM shot.

assault cannon razorbacks - twin linked and rending will help just like on the LRC.

If your tailoring a list to specifically counter flyers, 5 heavy bolter long fangs will scrap off a hull point or two.

Most of the flyers that get used are Armour 12. Storm Ravens and Vendettas. You won't be scraping much off those with a heavy bolter.

Out of the 9 flyers that I'm currently aware of the HB will work just fine on seven of them.

Storm Ravens are too cost prohibitive to run too many of them and well Vendettas will probably be showing up in a lot of allied lists, but at least there will only be 1 squadron.

Well i mean Guard can take quiet a few, and also doesnt have to be the army allying up as well. :/

Or just go with the flow and take an ally that has flyers and bring one of your own. Generic SM storm talon should be able to drop most other fliers in the game.

Jayden63 wrote:Nobody can get flakk missile launchers yet. But seriously, why do people think that you need to fire at full BS to kill flyers. Weight of fire and twin linking are you friends.

Most of the new flyers are AV10 or 11.

Landraider Crusaders. Everything is TL and it can move 12 and snap fire every gun it has. 6 or 12 bolt guns, 4 assault cannon shots, 1 MM shot.

assault cannon razorbacks - twin linked and rending will help just like on the LRC.

If your tailoring a list to specifically counter flyers, 5 heavy bolter long fangs will scrap off a hull point or two.

Sorry I haven't seen the new rules yet, isn't it 6 to hit them? I'm not sure I'd bother with Long Fang Heavy Bolters with those odds.

So against an 11 armour flyer, heavy bolter shot has 1/6 chance of hitting and 1/6 chance of glancing, so to actually get a 50% chance of inflicting 1 or more glancing hits would take 25 shots. Twin linked fares slightly better, only 13 shots required to get a 50% chance of 1+ glancing hits.

Ork Bommers are only armour 10 so you have a better chance against them, with 25 shots you have a 50% chance of glancing 1 or more times AND a 50% chance of penetrating 1 or more times... still not great odds by my count though.

You can certainly hurt a flyer with lots of heavy bolter fire, just saying if you actually want to do damage you have to be willing to accept maybe wasting a few turns of Long Fang fire for no effect when usually you want to be investing that in killing something else which you actually have a chance of hurting.

Twin linked assault cannons do fare slightly better, but aren't nearly as common. 4 shots from a TL AC you're looking at 30.55% chance to hit then a 1/3 chance of doing damage, so every round of shooting that's a 35% chance of doing damage against an armour 11 flyer, around 18.9% half of which is a chance of penetrating and 18.9% chance of glancing.

Yeah while the twin linked assualt cannons, are nice i am not sure how effective they will be needing 6s, to hit and 6s to pen.

Remember, you can snap fire with heavy bolters if you move them. So having 5 of them as long fangs, move them 6 and shoot at a flier if you do so (always worth a shot...literally) because you are hitting on 6's anyway (not sure how standing still and shooting at a plane is just as inaccurate as moving and shooting but w/e). Also, long fangs with heavy bolters is a pretty decent anti charge and anti horde option, now with the focus fire especially. Just pick off any enemies that aren't in cover. Anyway, I digress.

You could always get a mini unit of guardsmen (never hurts for numbers really) a cheap HQ and buy a Hyrda.

Heavy Bolters won't do squat against flyers.

5 heavy bolters against an AV10 flyer. Thats .41 penetrating hits and .41 glances.

And they are useless against Stormravens and Vendettas and almost useless against Stormtalons.

Grey Templar wrote:Heavy Bolters won't do squat against flyers.

5 heavy bolters against an AV10 flyer. Thats .41 penetrating hits and .41 glances.

And they are useless against Stormravens and Vendettas and almost useless against Stormtalons.

Yes, so buy flyers for your own army or ally with with someone who can use them because right now, flyers are the only real counter for other flyers(unless you're foot orcs/guard thanks to raw weight of fire), it's exactly what GW wants you to do.

Flyers willbe the meta for a few months before new codexes are released with more flyers and more weapon upgrades that have sky fire and interceptor. Flyer heavy lists (like deamons) will be top for a while like bike nobs were in 5th but codexs and more detailed FAQ's and the actual game FAQs will solve this.

4 words:

Rifleman dreads & twin-linked assault cannons.

(Ok, maybe that's a little more than 4 words.)

Snap fir your Strike squad or Purifier Psycannons in Heavy mode. Move if you want, it doesn't matter!

Get eh divination Primaris power that let's you re-roll failed to hits.

jy2 wrote:4 words:

Rifleman dreads & twin-linked assault cannons.

(Ok, maybe that's a little more than 4 words.)

Think you mean auto cannons.

Anyway each rifleman dread will average 1.22 hits resulting in .4 pens and .2 glances vs an AV 11 zooming flyer, not exactly stellar performance considering they will probably die the turn the flyers turn up.

420pts gets you 15 missile launchers. Even without Skyfire of Flakk missiles, that's 15 shots that'll do something to a flyer on anything but a 1 as long as you hit. That's enough firepower on it's own to put down 6 flyers over the course of a 6 turn game, so on average you should be putting enough hits and glances/pen to take 2 hull points off a flyer every turn. Add to that any other weapons in the army such as heavy bolters, assault cannons, rifleman dreads, lascannons, etc, and you should be fine.

Sadly, all you can do is take that which gives you the best chance. Which in this case is volume of fire (since very little in the game at the moment has skyfire). So pick the guns that give you the best chance.

You can always take luck. Take a unit of MM long fangs. If you roll the magic 6 to hit (not terrible odds given that you have 5 shots) you have a really good chance of just killing the damn thing outright.

That is all you can do, beside maybe just refusing to play with anyone who brings more than one flyer to the table.

Sadly, even if your best option sucks, its still your best option. And you will just have to learn to deal with it.

Jayden63 wrote:
That is all you can do, beside maybe just refusing to play with anyone who brings more than one flyer to the table.
.

The option I will be taking, what's the point in playing games that are completely one sided and unfun.

Just a quick idea:

HQ - Rune Priest - cots - LL and something else. 110
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
EL - 5x Scouts - 5x Sniper Rifles. 90
EL - 5x Scouts - 5x Sniper Rifles. 90
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
Extra - Imperial Bastion - Quad Cannon. 125

HQ - Rune Priest - cots - LL and something else - Meltabombs. 115
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
EL - 5x Scouts - 5x Sniper Rifles. 90
EL - 5x Scouts - 5x Sniper Rifles. 90
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
Extra - Imperial Bastion - Quad Cannon. 125

25 pts to be spent yet, somewhere, I don't know..

By any means not an optimised list but something that could certainly throw some bullet away..

Between the missiles, the LLs, the Quad Cannons and why not even the rending snipers.. well, may a math-lover make the calcules for us?

Toban wrote:Just a quick idea:

HQ - Rune Priest - cots - LL and something else. 110
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
EL - 5x Scouts - 5x Sniper Rifles. 90
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
Extra - Fortress of Redemption. 220

HQ - Rune Priest - cots - LL and something else - meltabombs. 115
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
EL - 5x Scouts - 5x Sniper Rifles. 90
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
Extra - Fortress of Redemption. 220

15 pts to be spent yet, somewhere, I don't know..

By any means not an optimised list but something that could certainly throw some bullet away..

Between the missiles, the LLs and the Icarus lasers.. well, may a math-lover make the calcules for us?

Well the 30 launchers at BS1 net you 5 hits 2.5 pens and .83 glances vs AV 11 zooming flyers.

The Icarus LC nets you an extra 1.66 hits resulting in 1.1 pens and .27 glances.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mike712 wrote:

Toban wrote:Just a quick idea:

HQ - Rune Priest - cots - LL and something else. 110
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
EL - 5x Scouts - 5x Sniper Rifles. 90
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
Extra - Fortress of Redemption. 220

HQ - Rune Priest - cots - LL and something else - meltabombs. 115
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
EL - 5x Scouts - 5x Sniper Rifles. 90
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML. 140
Extra - Fortress of Redemption. 220

15 pts to be spent yet, somewhere, I don't know..

By any means not an optimised list but something that could certainly throw some bullet away..

Between the missiles, the LLs and the Icarus lasers.. well, may a math-lover make the calcules for us?

Well the 30 launchers at BS1 net you 5 hits 2.5 pens and .83 glances vs AV 11 zooming flyers.

The Icarus LC nets you an extra 1.78 hits resulting in 1.2 pens and .3 glances.

In fact, I guess you calculated the stats during my edits.

I've exchanged the Fortress of Redemption for a couple of bastion Quad Cannon's equipped and a little more anti-infantry (specific targets) fire.

Ok so missile launchers, 5 hits 2.5 pens and .8 glances.

Quad guns on the bastions, 7.11 hits, 2.4 pens and 1.2 glances.

Bastions with Quad gun.

Grey Knight Ally for psycannon purifiers, psycannon strike squad, storm raven and psyriflemen dread.

Imperial Guard Ally for the Vendetta and possibly Hydra although hydra is not good if opponent has no fliers.

Just wait till Gamesworkshop has had enough flier sales and they FAQ that we can buy Flakk missles for our long fangs for the low price of something silly like 1 point.

Even for 5 pts each missile (like the +1ST GK ammunitions upgrade) wouldn't be a huge problem.
165 pts for a 5x ML Long Fangs unit still sound as a good deal.

Lots of Str6+ Dakka. I'm running an Aegis Defense line with a Quad Gun, 2 Long Fangs with full up MLs, so that's something. I'm also scattering my forces and not using vehicles for now.