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In the back of the book it states them as characters so does this mean that the whole unit, and each Wolf Guard model in that unit is a character and therefore benefits from the character sectionj of special rules(like allocating to wound on to hit roles of 6 in CC and ranged shooting, also benefit from lookout sir rule of a 4+)?
If I'm getting this right doesn't it make Wolf Guard pretty powerful?

You think that's bad, all Paladins are characters, meaning not only do they get that, but they can also look out sir one another, to help allocate wounds around.

It's actually very fitting to the fluff, and to the army list in general. Since the wolf guard can split off into other squads to act as sergeants I understand (and can live with) one wound models being a unit of characters.

Yes but paladins can't take combi-plasma
I agree with you it makes sense from a fluffy standpoint, and with that I expect to see alot more logan wings, with term/power armour mix because of the sheer sweetness of having kickhide rules.

On a related note, are CSM Terminator Champions similarly all characters?

Cadian16th wrote:On a related note, are CSM Terminator Champions similarly all characters?

Yes, they're second last on the reference list for CSM (p412).

As per the FAQ, Wolf Guard only become characters AFTER they split off to become Pack Leaders. So as a unit, no they are not Characters

Lobukia wrote:As per the FAQ, Wolf Guard only become characters AFTER they split off to become Pack Leaders. So as a unit, no they are not Characters

So what is the basic for their unit type? the thing that classifies them as characters is the back of the rulebook, which says (Char), so as RAW does that mean the FAQ add character to thier unit type in addition to thier unit type to start which is dictated in the back of the rulle book which says its character to start with? Otherwise what is their basic type?


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Would't be the first time the have done redundant rules, example digital weapons for GK Brotherhood Champion who can re-roll to wound anyways. So it's just adding unit type(char) to unit type In(Char)

The back of the book, is just a quick reference, showing you in combat which models in your units are Characters.

They are infantry regardless, that gain the character tag (like a tactical sarg would) when they become Pack Leaders (as per FAQ). I don't even see a RAW conflict, its just a reference list. Which is again, why I can't help but wonder if the Paladin thing is an oversight or error.

This also applies to orks, if you check all nobz are characters as well, this makes a unit if them scary.

CrashCanuck wrote:This also applies to orks, if you check all nobz are characters as well, this makes a unit if them scary.

That's likely nobs leading squads, not the unit. You'll notice that Meganobz are not listed as characters, despite also being a unit of Nobz.

true, but as it stands it appears the units of them are as well

I predict a second round of FAQs, but as it stands, yeah... all Nobz are characters. So are all Incubi, and a host of things. Wolfguard would be, accept they FAQ'd that one the other way, go figure.

Well what I wonder is how they'll deal with Terminator Champions. If they change Nobz and Wolfguard to only being characters when leading a squad, what will happen when someone fields a full unit of Champions? There's not really a "leader" per se, but they are all upgraded models with a different stat line.

I'm really ok with paladins and champs having the ability to allocate 1/6 shots, it's the LOS for the entire squad that feels weird and not RAI, but yeah, right now it's RAW.

Nobz, I'm fine with LOS as a unit, the thought of one Nob pushing other Nobz into the line of fire just feels right somehow.

They did not FAQ Wolfguard to not be characters to begin with; they FAQ'd Pack leaders to Add Character to their preexisting Unit type.

The BRB is very specific in that the types in the Back of the book override that which is in the codex, and that a New codex/FAQ will override the types in the back of the BRB.

Nowhere in the FAQ does it have Wolfguard remove the Character type; so adding a second set of character type does nothing, and proves nothing.

haha you think wolfguard are bad, a warlock unit on jetbikes are all characters as well. I think at this point DE(baron)+Eldar(autarch, farseer, warlock, all jetbikes) deathstar is the most broken in the game.

Tactica wrote:I predict a second round of FAQs, but as it stands, yeah... all Nobz are characters. So are all Incubi, and a host of things. Wolfguard would be, accept they FAQ'd that one the other way, go figure.

How are Incubi all characters?

Kommissar Kel wrote:They did not FAQ Wolfguard to not be characters to begin with; they FAQ'd Pack leaders to Add Character to their preexisting Unit type.

The BRB is very specific in that the types in the Back of the book override that which is in the codex, and that a New codex/FAQ will override the types in the back of the BRB.

Nowhere in the FAQ does it have Wolfguard remove the Character type; so adding a second set of character type does nothing, and proves nothing.

Wow, KK, just wow. So you think that GW added "character" to a unit that already had "character", making them "character, characters" instead of them listing the unit as a possible character choice in the BRB, in reference work for what can possibly use character status?

By your obscured logic, if they HADN'T listed WolfGuard as a "character" option in the BRB, that would have also overruled the codex... What a wierd circular reasoning world

A table or list that clearly works with a FAQ as written is choice A... An brand new FAQ entry that means nothing and a table entry that overrules it is choice B, and you go with B ?! It says volumes about GW's long a distinguished history of poorly writing rules and quality control that an experienced gamer like you sees choice B as an actual option.

By my "Circular Logic" If the back of the BRB hadn't listed them as "Character", then the FAQ would Change that for the situation detailed via the FAQ.

The FAQ does not Change the Wolfguard from having the unit type "Character".

All it does is add the unit type again(which does absolutely nothing); to the new unit type in the Appendix.

Here's some Quotes of the relevant rules:
BRB Page 44, Unit Types, Last Paragraph: "If your Codex Doesn't contain unit type information, then simply consult Appendix II of this book - you will find a complete at-a-glance bestiary that (among other things) lists each model's unit type."

SW FAQ, Amendments says: Note that this is an older Codex written for a previous edition of the rules. You will therefore need to consult the reference section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for an upto date list of [i]unit types and vehicle Hull points."

Then go to Appendix II in the BRB and Find: "Wolf guard: Infantry(character)"

So, you see by reading the relevant rules we find that Wolf guard are always Characters, and the FAQ simply adds it again when they split off as pack leaders.

I'm with kk on this one. I think the errata entry in the new faq was added to make sure that they actually keep the 'character' type and didnt lose it when joining another squad.

I do believe the intention was not for the unit to be filled with characters, and the FAQ was intended to add character to a model that would not normally have it.

(Un)Fortunately; that is not what the actual rules say.

The clarification in the FAQ may be there to make it clear that Wolf Guard on bikes or with a jump pack are still characters. We don't know GW's intent. If Paladins and Ork Nobz are all characters, I can believe the intent was that Wolfguard are.

Lobukia wrote:I'm really ok with paladins and champs having the ability to allocate 1/6 shots, it's the LOS for the entire squad that feels weird and not RAI, but yeah, right now it's RAW.

Nobz, I'm fine with LOS as a unit, the thought of one Nob pushing other Nobz into the line of fire just feels right somehow.

Really? that is your argument? 'it feels right somehow' is how you decide rules? Please.

The whole point of the shooting is to reduce the wound allocation shenanigans that were going on, by putting 10 wounds on 10 pallies, and not losing a single one.

Not to mention they can all snipe now? Last I checked, having 16 Psy-cannons shot at your, being able to allocate 2-3 of those, on top of the 12 storm bolters, is a bit over the top, you think? But it's ok, because you 'feel it's ok, and in their fluff'.

maaksel wrote:

Lobukia wrote:I'm really ok with paladins and champs having the ability to allocate 1/6 shots, it's the LOS for the entire squad that feels weird and not RAI, but yeah, right now it's RAW.

Nobz, I'm fine with LOS as a unit, the thought of one Nob pushing other Nobz into the line of fire just feels right somehow.

Really? that is your argument? 'it feels right somehow' is how you decide rules? Please.

The whole point of the shooting is to reduce the wound allocation shenanigans that were going on, by putting 10 wounds on 10 pallies, and not losing a single one.

Not to mention they can all snipe now? Last I checked, having 16 Psy-cannons shot at your, being able to allocate 2-3 of those, on top of the 12 storm bolters, is a bit over the top, you think? But it's ok, because you 'feel it's ok, and in their fluff'.

Cool your jets little man, I wasn't saying how thing should be, how things would be balanced, just giving my opinion on the units and fluffy qualities. Made it pretty clear that this was all opinion and NOT AN ARGUMENT on rules. In fact, if you bother to read my posts in this thread and in the other parallel one, I've been arguing that RAI is NOT for the Paladins to have these traits, but RAW is that way for now (kinda what you even quoted there).

To me, I feel like Champions and Paladins are those uber elite that can do the special wonderful shooty tricks you are describing. Paladins rotating in and out taking wounds is cheesy (to me again). Nobz, I feel differently on.

Its like I said "the sky is blue and not cobalt, on the other hand, if it was cobalt, that would be cool"

and then you raged "How can you say the sky is cobalt just because you like it!! What a dumb argument!"

...go away

You could argue that because of what is written in the book. Pg 63 BRB "Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad leaders, such as space marine veteran sergeant. They have thier own profile, but do not have a separate entry. They are just another trooper in their unit, with enchanced characteristiscs and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices." That Wolfguard, paladins and nobs are only characters when leading other units. But if you group them together they are basic infantry since they have the same stat profile. (Bikes, jumps packs, term armour of course altering troop type.) Since they would all have the same profile and there isn't a Super Nob, or Veteran Wolf Guard Sergeant. The appendex in the back is a quick reference guide showing how things appear most of the time, I mean if that appendex were the be all end all the Codex: Space Marines wouldn't have any jump capable troops.

The rules say they are all characters.

It might be an accident or it might not. The rulebook even has a paragraph explaining how Look Out Sir works in all-character units, so they were aware of the concept.

Out of personal opinion I was only going to play WG as characters when in the role of WGPL, but KK has put forth a very solid RAW argument that has convinced me otherwise.

Kommissar Kel wrote:They did not FAQ Wolfguard to not be characters to begin with; they FAQ'd Pack leaders to Add Character to their preexisting Unit type.

The BRB is very specific in that the types in the Back of the book override that which is in the codex, and that a New codex/FAQ will override the types in the back of the BRB.

Nowhere in the FAQ does it have Wolfguard remove the Character type; so adding a second set of character type does nothing, and proves nothing.

Precisely. The FAQ applies to the entry on Wolf Guard Pack Leaders on p. 86 of the SW Codex. When a WGPL joins another unit it's type becomes that unit, so without this FAQ entry they would lose their Character status because Grey Hunters, et al are not characters.

Exactly primarch.