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Lobukia wrote:As per the FAQ, Wolf Guard only become characters AFTER they split off to become Pack Leaders. So as a unit, no they are not Characters

+1
was about to write that

PrimarchX wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:They did not FAQ Wolfguard to not be characters to begin with; they FAQ'd Pack leaders to Add Character to their preexisting Unit type.

The BRB is very specific in that the types in the Back of the book override that which is in the codex, and that a New codex/FAQ will override the types in the back of the BRB.

Nowhere in the FAQ does it have Wolfguard remove the Character type; so adding a second set of character type does nothing, and proves nothing.

Precisely. The FAQ applies to the entry on Wolf Guard Pack Leaders on p. 86 of the SW Codex. When a WGPL joins another unit it's type becomes that unit, so without this FAQ entry they would lose their Character status because Grey Hunters, et al are not characters.

No, models continue to have their Type; it is their model type.

A Nilla TAc Squad is Unit Type Infantry, but the Sgt is Type: Infantry(Character).

Just because you are moving your Wolfguard that is Type: Infantry(Character) into a unit that is Type: Infantry does not mean he loses the (character) portion of his model type any more than adding an IC on a Bike to an infantry squad changes his model type from Bike to Infantry.

grendel083 wrote:

CrashCanuck wrote:This also applies to orks, if you check all nobz are characters as well, this makes a unit if them scary.

That's likely nobs leading squads, not the unit. You'll notice that Meganobz are not listed as characters, despite also being a unit of Nobz.

So I kind of view this as a nerf to the "powerklaw + 30 Boys" mob. Suppose the Orks charge a unit of Tactical Marines. Now the seargent can challenge the Nob. If the Nob refuses, he cannot attack. If he accepts, then the seargent has a chance to kill the Nob before the dreaded powerklaw rips into the squad. Maybe the seargent will die in the process too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Precisely. The FAQ applies to the entry on Wolf Guard Pack Leaders on p. 86 of the SW Codex. When a WGPL joins another unit it's type becomes that unit, so without this FAQ entry they would lose their Character status because Grey Hunters, et al are not characters.

No, models continue to have their Type; it is their model type.

A Nilla TAc Squad is Unit Type Infantry, but the Sgt is Type: Infantry(Character).

Just because you are moving your Wolfguard that is Type: Infantry(Character) into a unit that is Type: Infantry does not mean he loses the (character) portion of his model type any more than adding an IC on a Bike to an infantry squad changes his model type from Bike to Infantry.

Dude....The wolf guard pack leaders are characters just like space marine seargents are characters because WG are the only way space wolves can have seargents. But also, you don't field an entire unit of Ultramarine seargents so when you group the Wolf Guard as a unit, they are NOT characters anymore.

Grugknuckle wrote:Dude....The wolf guard pack leaders are characters just like space marine seargents are characters because WG are the only way space wolves can have seargents. But also, you don't field an entire unit of Ultramarine seargents so when you group the Wolf Guard as a unit, they are NOT characters anymore.

Wolf Guard models are Characters because Appendix II in the BRB changes them to Characters.

My point in my thread you quoted was that as they were already Model type: (character) moving them from the WG unit to the grey hunter(or any other eligible) unit does not remove that model type.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:Dude....The wolf guard pack leaders are characters just like space marine seargents are characters because WG are the only way space wolves can have seargents. But also, you don't field an entire unit of Ultramarine seargents so when you group the Wolf Guard as a unit, they are NOT characters anymore.

Wolf Guard models are Characters because Appendix II in the BRB changes them to Characters.

My point in my thread you quoted was that as they were already Model type: (character) moving them from the WG unit to the grey hunter(or any other eligible) unit does not remove that model type.

Apparently someone at GW thought it did. Remember, the rules of the Codecies supercede the rules in the BRB. So they had to address this by FAQ'ing the WGPL entry in the codex. On page 3 of the FAQ it says.

PAGE 86 - Wolf Guard, Pack Leaders
Add the following sentence to the end of the paragraph: Furthermore, a Wolf Guard Pack Leader's Unit Type becomes 'Character' in addition to its normal type.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420319a_Space_Wolves_6th_Ed_V1.pdf

So there is some ambiguity. Does it "become" character when you made him a pack leader - and he wasn't one before? Or do all WG have the 'character' unit type because the BRB says so? If all WG are characters, then why is it necessary for the FAQ to delineate that fact for Pack Leaders, but not for full units of Wolf Guard? Wouldn't you expect the FAQ to also say, "Change the unit type of Wolf Guard Packs to Elite: Infantry (character)?"

It really comes down to the question of whether you have to be a pack leader to get the character unit type. Niether the 6th Ed rulebook nor the codex nor the FAQ states clearly one way or the other. It comes down to which of these documents supercedes the others.

I suggest everyone hash it out at your own FLGS.

Lobukia wrote:As per the FAQ, Wolf Guard only become characters AFTER they split off to become Pack Leaders. So as a unit, no they are not Characters

I don't seen the word "after", anywhere in the Wolf Guard entry... just sayin...

When I read the entry, to me, it's just repeating what the BRB says... that's all it is; repetition. Nowhere does it say when they are NOT characters... it's as simple as that.

Besides, if Necrons, Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Eldar, and Orks all get to have squads of characters, then it only makes sense it was not their intention to remove it from Space Wolfs.

I play Tau, and I noticed something like this almost happened with my Bodyguard Suits. They specifically said that Shas'vre (which is what a bodyguard unit is made of), is now a character. BUT, they also said, in an entry specifically for shas'vre in Bodyguard squads, that they then no longer count as characters. 'Cause frak Tau I guess... not to mention the Target Lock bull****.

Agreed. It doesn't say that they are characters ONLY after they become pack leaders.

The appendix of the BRB says ALL wolf guard are infantry (Characters).

The FAQ for the codex, which nominally supercedes the core rules, says a Wolf Guard Pack Leader's Unit Type becomes 'Character' in addition to its normal type.

But if they were already characters then you don't need to say this at all because, as Kommisar Kel pointed out, you don't change your unit type just because you join a unit.

The rules in the Codex supersede the rules in the BRB Excepting the unit types and Hull points in appendix II.

I had already quoted the relevant entries in the BRB on this(First Page of this thread, my second post in it), so I will now quote myself:

Kommissar Kel wrote:The FAQ does not Change the Wolfguard from having the unit type "Character".

All it does is add the unit type again(which does absolutely nothing); to the new unit type in the Appendix.

Here's some Quotes of the relevant rules:
BRB Page 44, Unit Types, Last Paragraph: "If your Codex Doesn't contain unit type information, then simply consult Appendix II of this book - you will find a complete at-a-glance bestiary that (among other things) lists each model's unit type."

SW FAQ, Amendments says: Note that this is an older Codex written for a previous edition of the rules. You will therefore need to consult the reference section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for an upto date list of [i]unit types and vehicle Hull points."

Then go to Appendix II in the BRB and Find: "Wolf guard: Infantry(character)"

So, you see by reading the relevant rules we find that Wolf guard are always Characters, and the FAQ simply adds it again when they split off as pack leaders.

EDIT : I guess that if you join a unit of Bikes or jump packs, then your unit type would change to "Jump Infantry (character)" or "Bike (Character)". Could this be the intent of the rule?

Grugknuckle wrote:EDIT : I guess that if you join a unit of Bikes or jump packs, then your unit type would change to "Jump Infantry (character)" or "Bike (Character)". Could this be the intent of the rule?

The Wolfguard model would not become unit type Bike or Jump pack any more than an Infantry IC joining the squad would.

Not that it would matter "character" is a value in and of its own that is attached to specific model per page 63, and the up-to-date list of which models are of which types(including the Character value) is in Appendix II per page 44 quoted above.

I don't know how you guys play, and I don't know how tournaments are going to rule this. Fluffwise, I can totally see all Wolf Guard being characters - even in full units of 10 WG. However, I predict that this will present a whole host of problems with abusing the challenge rules. For example, see this thread...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/459845.page

So - again - I don't know how you guys are going to play it, but at my FLGS, I'll probably consider them to NOT be characters when deployed in units.

Grugknuckle wrote:I don't know how you guys play, and I don't know how tournaments are going to rule this. Fluffwise, I can totally see all Wolf Guard being characters - even in full units of 10 WG. However, I predict that this will present a whole host of problems with abusing the challenge rules. For example, see this thread...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/459845.page

So - again - I don't know how you guys are going to play it, but at my FLGS, I'll probably consider them to NOT be characters when deployed in units.

Most of the "abuses" in that thread are Fabricated Fancy.

Only 1 Challenge can be issued per combat; and if an enemy character were to issue a challenge in order to try and remove a particular model from the combat at large, any other model can just accept the challenge and fight.