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So i went back through False gods to try and pinpoint the exact time when Horus was indeed influenced by something other then himself...

Theres a few different things that happen in False gods that would make Horus not himself, or influence him..

One, being stabbed in the shoulder by the sword (forget name) This wound could alter something within ( i know it was all part of the plan to use the voodoo on the planet but, could still be a factor )

The vision Erebus shows Horus, are these visions forged by Erebus? or the Book of Lorgar he seems to show Horus all these things in Horuses dream, at this point is Horus actually dead?

By the end of the dreams and Magnus has already warned Horus, would you consider Horus already corrupted? ( just by seeing the visions ) Even before Horus wakes up and steps out of the "serpent Lodge" he says he doesn't believe in either Erebus or Magnus'es magic and sorcerery and that he wont be fouled or tricked by them.... But if he was truly dead and then woke up alive.... then even if you dont see Horus being influenced by the chaos gods, he was in fact firmly corrupt?

Horus immediately acts different when he leaves the serpent lodge, he doesn't speak to the mournival or ask for anything... THE entire command of the Luna Wolves is mostly corrupt by this point as well.... Is this because the Luna wolves are just loyal to Horus before the emperor? we see Abaddon stating clearly that he feels betrayed by the emperor on Ullinor when speaking to Aximan. Is it fair to say that since the legions back then were made from there primarchs genetic material that this betrayal was in their blood? Or is it simply the Lodges ability to let you speak freely over time corrupting the legions such as the Luna wolves; so slowly that they dont notice?

The Lodge is the command within the Luna wolves after Horus is rejoined to the Legion... and they all want to pin the murders and spilt imperial blood on Loken ? is this Horus'es influence or just hard feelings ?

Is it the visions that are shown to Horus that makes him influenced ? or did the visions not work at all, but the resurrection in the serpent lodge instantly make Horus Chaosy...

Right after he comes from the Serpent Lodge, the entire fleet instantly changes route from their crusade to the system where they wage the war on the lost imperial world for STC machines... Horus somehow instantly knew where to find a lost imperial world with STC machines??? this i find very strange.. Unless he was told this by Erebus but i'm pretty sure in the book Erebus has no contact with Horus RIGHT after the serpent lodge.

I'm at a total loss, i dont understand how Horus was corrupted, was it just the idea that the emperor was going to become a god, and not find a use for the primarchs afterwards that Horus the only son to have his fathers ambition thought that he was going to save humanity, because Horus truly believes that he isn't influenced by chaos that he is in fact going to be a savoir and stop the emperor, he thinks hes doing the right thing...

was Horus corrupted as a baby back in the secret labs on terra.... ( and on a side note.... why the hell in his dream / vision did or was able to kill people in the laboratory this was a very strange part of the book.... i think the emperor even looks at Horus in the dream and walks away while Horus is calling to him...)

Did the emperor in fact make a deal with the chaos gods to create the Primarchs.. were the gods the Lightening to the emperors Frankenstein?

I haven't read False Gods for a long time, but my understanding of Horus' corruption is that the Gods of chaos showed him a vision of the future (to us, it seems like the 'present' 40k universe - Emperor is worshipped as a god, no Primarchs stand alongside him) and Horus put 2 + 2 together and assumed that the Emperor had left the crusade to him so the Emperor could ascend/make himself the greatest, off the back of Horus' and the other primarchs work. For this reason he rebelled, he did not see this as a fair result of his labours.

What I really like about this, is that while the Gods showed him A future, that future only comes to pass BECAUSE Horus rebels. So unkown to Horus, the visions he sees are not the result of the Emperors vanity, but his own.

Even if this isn't the 'Canon' plotline (if that were to ever come out - GW loves its mystery) I still like to think that thats how the Chaos Gods finally tricked Horus into becoming there pawn.

Well Black Library publications are "canon" so that is the true story.

Okay interesting.. no one else? some clarity would be nice..

Well with all the points you've made it could be basically any one of them or a combination of all. Thats whats so great about the back story and keeps us coming back for more and discussing it on forums such as these.

I do find the whole fall to Chaos interesting and find myself asking the same question over and over again. Do they actually know how far they have fallen? Do they not question themselves when they suddenly go against the things that they have fought for so strongly for hundreds and thousands of years? It always reminds me of the film Seven when Brad Pitt has the serial killer in the back of the police car and asks him

Quote - "I've been trying to figure something in my head, and maybe you can help me out, yeah? When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading "Guns and Ammo", masturbating in your own feces, do you just stop and go, "Wow! It is amazing how f***ing crazy I really am!"? Yeah. Do you guys do that?

In the latest Primach book Lucius and others suspect Fulgrim is possessed by a deamon and aren't happy about it so try to drive it out. I mean come on, didn't they think something was a bit different when Fabius started to wear skin as a dress??

I'd be like "dude whats that all about?"

Frecklesonfire wrote:
One, being stabbed in the shoulder by the sword (forget name) This wound could alter something within ( i know it was all part of the plan to use the voodoo on the planet but, could still be a factor )

I think it was to make him vulnerable, not many things can lay low a Primarch.

Frecklesonfire wrote:The vision Erebus shows Horus, are these visions forged by Erebus? or the Book of Lorgar he seems to show Horus all these things in Horuses dream, at this point is Horus actually dead?

By the end of the dreams and Magnus has already warned Horus, would you consider Horus already corrupted? ( just by seeing the visions ) Even before Horus wakes up and steps out of the "serpent Lodge" he says he doesn't believe in either Erebus or Magnus'es magic and sorcerery and that he wont be fouled or tricked by them.... But if he was truly dead and then woke up alive.... then even if you dont see Horus being influenced by the chaos gods, he was in fact firmly corrupt?

I think it was the push he needed to make him see that the Emperor wasn't worthy and that he was the one doing all the hard work.

The Vision is a bit lame in my opinion, but how else would they have convinced a person like Horus to side against the Emperor without the assistance of some mumbo jumbo.It was more mysterious in the original fluff as Horus met with the Serpent Lodge and he had changed. They were the agents that introduced him to Chaos. I'm glad that we have been introduced to Erebus though, he is a dastardly character.

Frecklesonfire wrote:Horus immediately acts different when he leaves the serpent lodge, he doesn't speak to the mournival or ask for anything... THE entire command of the Luna Wolves is mostly corrupt by this point as well.... Is this because the Luna wolves are just loyal to Horus before the emperor? we see Abaddon stating clearly that he feels betrayed by the emperor on Ullinor when speaking to Aximan. Is it fair to say that since the legions back then were made from there primarchs genetic material that this betrayal was in their blood? Or is it simply the Lodges ability to let you speak freely over time corrupting the legions such as the Luna wolves; so slowly that they dont notice?

I don't think they are corrupt, but they definitely have loyalty to Horus above the Emperor. After all, where was the Emperor when Horus needed him most. Although not all of them are like this, which we find out later in the series. The Lodges probably have something to do with it. it was the Word Bearers that introduced them to the other Legions with this intent if I recall.

Frecklesonfire wrote:The Lodge is the command within the Luna wolves after Horus is rejoined to the Legion... and they all want to pin the murders and spilt imperial blood on Loken ? is this Horus'es influence or just hard feelings ?

I think it's a bit of both, the Lodge seems to formulate it's own ideas of what is required for the benefit of Horus, so it's influenced by Horus maybe indirectly.

Frecklesonfire wrote:Is it the visions that are shown to Horus that makes him influenced ? or did the visions not work at all, but the resurrection in the serpent lodge instantly make Horus Chaosy...

I think this is just what was required to push Horus over the edge, he'd been feeling like the Emperor left him in the lurch for sometime.

Frecklesonfire wrote:Right after he comes from the Serpent Lodge, the entire fleet instantly changes route from their crusade to the system where they wage the war on the lost imperial world for STC machines... Horus somehow instantly knew where to find a lost imperial world with STC machines??? this i find very strange.. Unless he was told this by Erebus but i'm pretty sure in the book Erebus has no contact with Horus RIGHT after the serpent lodge.

I don't know if that is the case as I can't remember, but I believed that it was a planet on the path of their Crusade that just happened to be rich with STCs. Maybe they were guided to it, we're not sure.

Frecklesonfire wrote:I'm at a total loss, i dont understand how Horus was corrupted, was it just the idea that the emperor was going to become a god, and not find a use for the primarchs afterwards that Horus the only son to have his fathers ambition thought that he was going to save humanity, because Horus truly believes that he isn't influenced by chaos that he is in fact going to be a savoir and stop the emperor, he thinks hes doing the right thing...

This is what seems to be missing from the series at the moment, the actual meaning. I haven't felt that Horus is doing things other than being made at the Emperor, there doesn't seem to be the intent that he is doing things for the benefit of mankind at all. 'LET THE GALAXY BURN' doesn't seem to be a phrase from the lips of someone wanting to do a good thing.

Frecklesonfire wrote:was Horus corrupted as a baby back in the secret labs on terra.... ( and on a side note.... why the hell in his dream / vision did or was able to kill people in the laboratory this was a very strange part of the book.... i think the emperor even looks at Horus in the dream and walks away while Horus is calling to him...)

Chaos spoke to the infant Primarchs and it's hinted that the traitor geneseed had some flaws to it. Loken mentions in Horus Rising that the Emperor had added genecode to the Space Marines to prevent brother fighting brother.

I think it said that the Emperor didn't recognize Horus, why the Emperor didn't try to stop the Primarchs being taken I'm not sure. Maybe he saw what would happen and allowed it, why though I dunno?

Frecklesonfire wrote:Did the emperor in fact make a deal with the chaos gods to create the Primarchs.. were the gods the Lightening to the emperors Frankenstein?

Hinted at, but often by Daemons so not to be trusted. I believe that the Chaos Gods offered the Emperor power, he recognised that they were evil and he denied becoming their pawn. This basically made them angry and bitter enemies were born.

DILL3NGER wrote:Well with all the points you've made it could be basically any one of them or a combination of all. Thats whats so great about the back story and keeps us coming back for more and discussing it on forums such as these.

I do find the whole fall to Chaos interesting and find myself asking the same question over and over again. Do they actually know how far they have fallen? Do they not question themselves when they suddenly go against the things that they have fought for so strongly for hundreds and thousands of years? It always reminds me of the film Seven when Brad Pitt has the serial killer in the back of the police car and asks him

Quote - "I've been trying to figure something in my head, and maybe you can help me out, yeah? When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading "Guns and Ammo", masturbating in your own feces, do you just stop and go, "Wow! It is amazing how f***ing crazy I really am!"? Yeah. Do you guys do that?

In the latest Primach book Lucius and others suspect Fulgrim is possessed by a deamon and aren't happy about it so try to drive it out. I mean come on, didn't they think something was a bit different when Fabius started to wear skin as a dress??

I'd be like "dude whats that all about?"

Pretty much share the same thoughts as you.

One minute they are reuniting the Galaxy in the name of the Emperor then they are sacrificing populations to things they didn't believe in before and are wearing said population as fashion accessories afterwards. Did they ever think, hmm, something isn't quite right here?

It's just some really poor writing. Horus fall was very poorly orchestrated.

DILL3NGER wrote:
Well with all the points you've made it could be basically any one of them or a combination of all. Thats whats so great about the back story and keeps us coming back for more and discussing it on forums such as these.

I do find the whole fall to Chaos interesting and find myself asking the same question over and over again. Do they actually know how far they have fallen? Do they not question themselves when they suddenly go against the things that they have fought for so strongly for hundreds and thousands of years? It always reminds me of the film Seven when Brad Pitt has the serial killer in the back of the police car and asks him

Quote - "I've been trying to figure something in my head, and maybe you can help me out, yeah? When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading "Guns and Ammo", masturbating in your own feces, do you just stop and go, "Wow! It is amazing how f***ing crazy I really am!"? Yeah. Do you guys do that?

In the latest Primach book Lucius and others suspect Fulgrim is possessed by a deamon and aren't happy about it so try to drive it out. I mean come on, didn't they think something was a bit different when Fabius started to wear skin as a dress??

I'd be like "dude whats that all about?"

Pilau Rice wrote:

Pretty much share the same thoughts as you.

One minute they are reuniting the Galaxy in the name of the Emperor then they are sacrificing populations to things they didn't believe in before and are wearing said population as fashion accessories afterwards. Did they ever think, hmm, something isn't quite right here?

I think the slide is slower than it is portrayed in the books, month io minor grumbling don't make for good reading so the whole process is speed with great swaithes of time skipped over.

I'm not going to guess at the events before the primarch were found as the books have never gone in to enough detail for us to really know what damage the Daemons did to the primarch's. But all the events from when the emperor leaves the crusade (and Horus's promotion to Warmaster) are the begining of his downfall. The nature of the crusade changes when the emperor leaves, the bureaucracy finally catches up with the crusade. Up this point it's been all about conquest then suddenly it's about consolidation, Horus feels he's be abanoned to deal with the the emperor can't be bothered with. The sense of abandoment is increased by the fact the emperor never tells the primarch what he's doing back on terra.

His injury and the hissing of Erebus are all factors that greatly aid his downfall after his ressurection he is tained, he makes reference in let the galaxy burn to him being in charge still and that he wiill not be manipulated by the warp but by this point it's like a drug addict saying he can handle it and that drugs haven't changed him as he gives his first hand job for crack.

The mounrniful are tainted in the same manner as horus the difference is instead of being injured themselves it is horus's injury that open them to corruption. The suffer from the same issues as the primarch if not to greater extent, it's like a child witnessing the collapse of a parent. I imagine the lodge had also been twisting their perspectives for a long time, in apinch they cast aside imperial truth and take Horus to a thane, this hardly the actions of Stoic warriors of the imperium. Also IIRC none of them, excpet Loken, seem to notice how corrupted the Davinites appear to be.

The truly crazy don't know they are crazy, it's how you know the true nut jobs from those suffering from temporary madness or being swept along by events from those who are truly mad. Look at the difference between Abbadon and Aximand (Little Horus), Aximand shows signs of regret, doubt and even sorrow for his actions where Abbadon does not and actuall relishes the idea of killing Loken.

It just doesn't make any sense no matter which way you spin it.

Horus has no greed or ambition. He never demonstrates any political one up-man-ship, or desire for further rule. He never thinks beyond the Crusade, and thus has no believable reason to rebel against his father. And no reason to make a deal with the Chaos Gods. When it all happens it's just a WTF moment.

Here's how I would have written it:

Horus wants to be the Emperors right hand. He believes once the Great Crusade is over, he will return to Terra to rule, second only to the Emperor himself. But he is threatened by his brother Primarchs, he see's Rogal Dorn being returned to Terra as usurping his position. Malcador thwarts his machinations at every turn, believing that the rule of the Imperium should be in the hands of civilian mortals, not Astartes or Primarchs. Horus grows ever restless and furious as he is sent further and further from Terra, believing it is time he returned in triumph to claim his rewards.

Things come to a head, and Horus decides he will return to Terra, and take what is rightfully his. He enlists the forces of Chaos to his cause, believing them to be just another ally, not realising that they are using him as much as he is using them.

The rest is history.

First Heretic hints at corruption before they were even lost. I don't have a copy on hand but will do in the morning. IIRC it said that as the capsules floated through space, the Dark Gods' worked their way inside some and polluted them.

So.essentially the corruption was already there, lying dormant, like cancer cells. It just needed something to waken it up.

Okay thanks a lot guys, interesting stuff indeed, its so vague...

Kaldor wrote:It just doesn't make any sense no matter which way you spin it.

Horus has no greed or ambition. He never demonstrates any political one up-man-ship, or desire for further rule. He never thinks beyond the Crusade, and thus has no believable reason to rebel against his father. And no reason to make a deal with the Chaos Gods. When it all happens it's just a WTF moment.

Here's how I would have written it:

Horus wants to be the Emperors right hand. He believes once the Great Crusade is over, he will return to Terra to rule, second only to the Emperor himself. But he is threatened by his brother Primarchs, he see's Rogal Dorn being returned to Terra as usurping his position. Malcador thwarts his machinations at every turn, believing that the rule of the Imperium should be in the hands of civilian mortals, not Astartes or Primarchs. Horus grows ever restless and furious as he is sent further and further from Terra, believing it is time he returned in triumph to claim his rewards.

Things come to a head, and Horus decides he will return to Terra, and take what is rightfully his. He enlists the forces of Chaos to his cause, believing them to be just another ally, not realising that they are using him as much as he is using them.

The rest is history.

You are aware that that is what actually happened, right?

The underlying insecurity that his brothers might usurp him as favorite, his distaste with humans governing the galaxy he won, and he does only consider Chaos an ally that he can sever contacts with after he wins Terra.

He certainly thinks beyond the Crusade, as shown by his near-breakdown at the end of Horus Rising.

Void__Dragon wrote:You are aware that that is what actually happened, right?

The underlying insecurity that his brothers might usurp him as favorite, his distaste with humans governing the galaxy he won, and he does only consider Chaos an ally that he can sever contacts with after he wins Terra.

He certainly thinks beyond the Crusade, as shown by his near-breakdown at the end of Horus Rising.

Maybe we were reading different books. I certainly never got any impressions of any of that from any of the books.