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So, now that vehicles have a WS, kharn can hit them on 2+, right? Or does the word 'count' screw him over when it says vehicles that didnt move COUNT as WS1 and vehicles that moved COUNT as WS0?

I can't see a reason Gorechild doesn't hit on a 2+

Of course since he's Init 1, he may not even get to hit most vehicles, what with 3 glances killing most of them.

Rear armour 10 with 10 Zerkers hes unlikely to get a hit on most vehicles.

Guess you put him with non CC squads now?

edit If you intend to kill vehicles with him, anyway...

He couldn't hit vehicles in 2s on 5th?... i don't remember it having to do anything restriction due to WS, gorechild rule says he always hits on 2, you roll to hit a vehicle?, if yes then on a 2+ he hits.

Lord Yayula wrote:He couldn't hit vehicles in 2s on 5th?

No, it only hit on 2's against models with a weapon skill, it was Part of the Errata same as it is now. But now vehicles have a weapon skill.

Kharn's axe being I1 is ridiculous. Its an axe being wielded by a dude with 10k years of practice wearing power armor. But now he swings as slow as a thunderhammer?!?!

On topic, being able to hit vehicles on 2s is a nice change from 5th. It will let you remove the mandatory PF from the squad if needed.

dionysus wrote:Kharn's axe being I1 is ridiculous. Its an axe being wielded by a dude with 10k years of practice wearing power armor. But now he swings as slow as a thunderhammer?!?!

On topic, being able to hit vehicles on 2s is a nice change from 5th. It will let you remove the mandatory PF from the squad if needed.

The thing is, Kharn's axe won't be initiative one. It has a "unique" rule on it that allows it to function as an unusual power weapon. The fact that Gorechild allows you to roll an extra D6 armor penetration qualifies it for the unique rule that allows it to be used at Initiative with AP3.

Lone Dragoon wrote:The thing is, Kharn's axe won't be initiative one. It has a "unique" rule on it that allows it to function as an unusual power weapon. The fact that Gorechild allows you to roll an extra D6 armor penetration qualifies it for the unique rule that allows it to be used at Initiative with AP3.

Incorrect. FAQ declares it a power axe.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:The thing is, Kharn's axe won't be initiative one. It has a "unique" rule on it that allows it to function as an unusual power weapon. The fact that Gorechild allows you to roll an extra D6 armor penetration qualifies it for the unique rule that allows it to be used at Initiative with AP3.

Incorrect. FAQ declares it a power axe.

A case can still be made for a unique power weapon. I can model a relic blade as an axe making it a power axe, but it still follows the unusual power weapons rules. Does Gorechild have one or more unique rule? Yes, it rolls an extra D6 for armor penetration.

All the FAQ does is changes the wording in the codex, it does not take away the unique rule, even by saying it is "treated as a power axe" does not take away the unique power. Thus the claim can still be made.

So, Dragoon, when they call it a Power Axe in the FAQ, that's totally meaningless?

I'd like to claim that Gorechild is a unique power weapon because...well, it IS.

Sadly, the CSM faq is the laziest written document in the history of the english language and just labeled it a power axe, so that's the rules it's supposed to use.

It's funny in a way because now Kharn actually stands a very good chance of being killed by a tactical squad he charged himself before he ever gets to swing. Said squad doesn't even need a power fist.

I never said that, the FAQ does not call it a power axe, "is treated as a power axe" does not make it a power axe. If the weapon is treated as a power axe, and adds an extra D6 to armor penetration against vehicles. Is it still treated as a power axe? Yes, just an unusual one.

So it's "treated" as a Power Axe, but only with S+0, AP3, and at Initiative, and no attribute of a Power Axe carries through?

MasterSlowPoke wrote:So it's "treated" as a Power Axe, but only with S+0, AP3, and at Initiative, and no attribute of a Power Axe carries through?

It is treated as a Power axe, only with the Unusual Power weapon caveat.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:So it's "treated" as a Power Axe, but only with S+0, AP3, and at Initiative, and no attribute of a Power Axe carries through?

It is treated as a Power axe, only with the Unusual Power weapon caveat.

So S+0, AP3, no init mod.
So... its not really treated like a power axe.

I think what Lonedragoon is trying to say is that it is a:

S(as user), AP3 weapon with the rules specified in it's entry.

And the rules specified in it's entry are S+1, AP2, unwieldy and adds +2d6 for total armor penetration rolls.

It is not that difficult a logic to follow; the end result is that it is a power axe with an extra d6 for penetration. It just takes the long way because: Shut up, I'm right.

And he's trying to ignore the "unwieldly" part.

no, yeah I know; but that is because he is trying to take an overly complicated route with the whole "Unusual Power weapon" aspect and forgetting that since "Power Axe" is one of it's special rules, and "unwieldy" is one of "power axe's" special rules that no matter how he tries to spin it; it has Unwieldy and he should just stop.

Plus side of it being a poweraxe and init 1 is that he wont kill 1 or more zerkers before they get to swing.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I think what Lonedragoon is trying to say is that it is a:

S(as user), AP3 weapon with the rules specified in it's entry.

And the rules specified in it's entry are S+1, AP2, unwieldy and adds +2d6 for total armor penetration rolls.

It is not that difficult a logic to follow; the end result is that it is a power axe with an extra d6 for penetration. It just takes the long way because: Shut up, I'm right.

I don't know what he is trying to say, but it is certainly some of the worst logic I've seen.

If it says in the FAQ that its treated like a power axe, then its treated like a power axe, not and unusual power axe.

Kevlar wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:I think what Lonedragoon is trying to say is that it is a:

S(as user), AP3 weapon with the rules specified in it's entry.

And the rules specified in it's entry are S+1, AP2, unwieldy and adds +2d6 for total armor penetration rolls.

It is not that difficult a logic to follow; the end result is that it is a power axe with an extra d6 for penetration. It just takes the long way because: Shut up, I'm right.

I don't know what he is trying to say, but it is certainly some of the worst logic I've seen.

It's not the worst logic ever; and at least it functions outside of a claim that he ignores unwieldy. It is Circuitous but Technically correct; Kharn does not have a Power Axe, he has an unusual power weapon that is also a power Axe.

Most people will short -hand that to A Power axe with some special rules, which is functionally correct; but in all reality a power Axe with special rules is an unusual Power weapon that is also a Power Axe.

Actually Dante does NOT have a unusual power weapon.

He has a Master Crafted Power Weapon

The model is carrying an axe

Therefore he has a master crafted power axe.

(His axe, despite having a name, has no unique rules, and is therefore not unusual.)

Actually, thats the same for Kharn, as he has armourbane, which is not unique either, therefore Gorechild is not really unusual either

The rulebook requires UNIQUE rules. Not just a name or something

Gorechild has the same effect as Armourbane, but not the rule(it is a unique special rule written in long form and the FAQ does not Change this.)
And the Always hitting everything on a 2+ is a Unique rule to Gorechild.

So yes doubly Unique rules, Doubly it is an Unusual Power weapon that is also a Power Axe.

Yeah, wrote this before I read the BA Power Weapons thread.

Gorechild is definitely an Unusual weapon.

Kiredor wrote:Yeah, wrote this before I read the BA Power Weapons thread.

Gorechild is definitely an Unusual weapon.

So, if it's unusual, does that mean it is unweildy? or not?

Phragonist wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Yeah, wrote this before I read the BA Power Weapons thread.

Gorechild is definitely an Unusual weapon.

So, if it's unusual, does that mean it is unweildy? or not?

One of the rules that his Unusual Power Weapon has, is Power Axe.

I'll leave you to figure out what the profile for the weapon is from there(Hint: if you can't figure it out I listed the whole rules earlier in this thread, Here is the Date/Time stamp: 2012/07/03 13:08:55)

If we assume Kharn to be striking at I1, does he still make his swings if the vehicle becomes wrecked at higher I? Basically, do you need to roll to see if he butchers a Berzerker or two by rolling 1s if the vehicle is already destroyed?

My first thought was no, as the defending unit has been destroyed. But since Kharn specifically can his his own side, I'm curious as to whether those rolls to hit would need to be made regardless?

DoW

No, Kharn can only hit his own side when he is attacking an enemy unit.

If there is no enemy unit to attack(No models within Kharns engagement zone at his initiative step); Kharn cannot attack.

The same would be true if Kharn in a unit was locked in assault with another enemy unit. If at Kharn's Initiative Step(I1), his Pile in move would not take him into base to base contact or within 2" of a friendly model in Base contact, then Kharn cannot make any attacks.

Kommissar Kel wrote:No, Kharn can only hit his own side when he is attacking an enemy unit.

If there is no enemy unit to attack(No models within Kharns engagement zone at his initiative step); Kharn cannot attack.

The same would be true if Kharn in a unit was locked in assault with another enemy unit. If at Kharn's Initiative Step(I1), his Pile in move would not take him into base to base contact or within 2" of a friendly model in Base contact, then Kharn cannot make any attacks.

Ah disappointing.

Fluff wise, I'd assume in the last case he would just start butchering zerkers like it was going out of style!

DoW