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If I were to give my banshees power axes (which are unwieldy) would they be able to strike at I10, their normal initiative I5, or the axe's unwieldy initiative of 1 on the charge. This is really important because I have 30 banshees and if they do not strike at atleast normal initiative on the charge then they are now a fairly terrible unit.

Helvost wrote:If I were to give my banshees power axes (which are unwieldy) would they be able to strike at I10, their normal initiative I5, or the axe's unwieldy initiative of 1 on the charge. This is really important because I have 30 banshees and if they do not strike at atleast normal initiative on the charge then they are now a fairly terrible unit.

Does there axe have special rules about them? If so then wouldn't they follow the unusual power weapons rule?

The wargear says they are equipped with a powerweapon which could be a sword or an axe. It is not an unusual power weapon, they get I10 on the charge from their banshee mask.

The banshee masks will likely not work.

The masks raise your initiative to 10 on the charge.

The axe makes you strike at Initiative rank 1. It does not modify your initiative, you will still be initiative 10, but you will still strike at rank 1.

Took me awhile to get around this rule, but the more I read it, the more it makes sense and prevent shenanigans.

How can you be at initiative 10 but also be at initiative rank 1? Initiative and initiative rank aren't the same thing?

A thunderhammer Terminator HAS initiative 4.

A thunderhammer Terminator STRIKES at initiative 1.

Same argument for Banshees. You can HAVE initiative 10, but you still STRIKE at initiative 1.

This makes me one sad panda. I guess my banshees are gonna see a lot more shelf time.

This is answered pretty clearly in all FAQs about "set value" modifiers. Whenever two set value mods apply to the same model, roll off with your opponent to figure out which one REALLY applies last.

Fxeni wrote:A thunderhammer Terminator HAS initiative 4.

A thunderhammer Terminator STRIKES at initiative 1.

Same argument for Banshees. You can HAVE initiative 10, but you still STRIKE at initiative 1.

This. The wording of the mask vs Unwieldy clearly indicates that one is applied after the other, despite both being 'set values', because they apply in different ways at different times. As such, there's no conflict requiring a roll-off.

The way I see and understand it, they are not mutually exclusive.

Initiative ranks are guided by the Ini stat of a character, but not controlled by it.

The encumbering rule states that you will strike at initiative "rank' 1. Not at initiative 1.

I was happy with this rule originally since they had removed the specification from 5th edition power fist where they said "always strike at initiative 1". I figured I could not get my canonness with repentias and with her AoF I would have a bunch of eviscerators striking before almost any terminators at Ini 2 (Eviscerator getting you Ini 1 and Cannoness AoF giving +1).

The way they changed the wording on the encumbering rule, it does not modify your initiative at all, it only affects when you get to strike with it. When you get to strike with it is at rank 1.

Where it may get interesting is since Banshees have pistols and I have not seen anything in the BRB mentionning that you have to use your special weapon if you have one, you could chose to use Initiative rank 10 for some banshees using a standard close combat weapon (the pistol) allowing armor saves and keep 2-3 banshees to attack heavier targets with their axes at rank 1 once you've thinned the ranks a bit.


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I don't think Banshee's are going to see more shelf time, if anything they are more useful now than they used to be.

leave most of the squads wielding swords and change 2 or 3 to axes. It will still allow you to thin down the enemy ranks at Ini rank 10 and if you end up in melee with terminators you won't get completely slaughtered.

Loch wrote:This is answered pretty clearly in all FAQs about "set value" modifiers. Whenever two set value mods apply to the same model, roll off with your opponent to figure out which one REALLY applies last.

No, its the same as them charging through cover in 5th. You can be initiative 10 all you want, but if you charged through cover or in this case use an unwieldy weapon, you strike at initiative 1. Doesn't matter what your initiative is.

The banshee mask said they always struck at I10 the first round of combat, regardless of initiative modifiers or penalties. So yeah, I10 on the first round of combat with axes.

Additionally, they're less useful now as they can't assault out of a stationary transport anymore meaning they have to get out, wait a turn of shooting and then assault.

Which might work overall but screws banshees

Kevlar wrote:

Loch wrote:This is answered pretty clearly in all FAQs about "set value" modifiers. Whenever two set value mods apply to the same model, roll off with your opponent to figure out which one REALLY applies last.

No, its the same as them charging through cover in 5th. You can be initiative 10 all you want, but if you charged through cover or in this case use an unwieldy weapon, you strike at initiative 1. Doesn't matter what your initiative is.

Charging through cover in 5th Banshees still struck at I10.

Celtic Strike wrote:The banshee mask said they always struck at I10 the first round of combat, regardless of initiative modifiers or penalties. So yeah, I10 on the first round of combat with axes.

Additionally, they're less useful now as they can't assault out of a stationary transport anymore meaning they have to get out, wait a turn of shooting and then assault.

Which might work overall but screws banshees

I agree with this, on both points. Lack of transports means banshees are pretty much useless now.

Yeah, these are not conflicting rules.

The Banshee Mask means the model has an I10 for the first round of combat. However a model attacking with an uwieldy weapon 'does so at Initiative 1'.

So even though the Banshee is I10, by attacking with an unwieldy weapon, she attacks at I1.

The rules work perfectly fine together and the net result is that the Banshee swings at I1 with a power axe.

I think the necron faq has a good precedent for this to use, just replace the set value of whip coils with the set value of a power ax. (and the banshee mask example is theirs, not added by me)

"Q; If a model with whip coils is in base contact with a model with an Initiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. an Eldar banshee Mask ect.), which order are the initiatives modified? (p44)
A; as a 'set value modifier' the Whip Coils effect is applied after all other modifiers. If the model is effected by another set value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start of each Fight sub-phase.

I believe the result is that each banshee has a 50% chance of striking at I1 or I10 each player turn.

DarbNilbirts wrote:I think the necron faq has a good precedent for this to use, just replace the set value of whip coils with the set value of a power ax. (and the banshee mask example is theirs, not added by me)

"Q; If a model with whip coils is in base contact with a model with an Initiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. an Eldar banshee Mask ect.), which order are the initiatives modified? (p44)
A; as a 'set value modifier' the Whip Coils effect is applied after all other modifiers. If the model is effected by another set value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start of each Fight sub-phase.

I believe the result is that each banshee has a 50% chance of striking at I1 or I10 each player turn.

I don't think this is quite analogous enough to stand as precedent, since the two pieces of wargear mentioned in this example are specifically coming from two different models on two different sides of the assault - one comes from the model in question, and the other comes from their enemy.

Also both affect the MODELS initiative, not the Initiative at which the model ATTACKS.

These are sometimes separate values. As in the case of any model with an unwieldy weapon.

for what it is worth
DE have an item that is called archangel of pain. Everybody has to test LD or be WS and Init 1 in assault. Its an item the make you init one.
Banshee Masks were Faqed to be init 10 after being init 1.