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Me and my friend were getting into a discussion with allying Dark Eldar and Eldar. We got on the subject of whether or not you can use Farseer's Codex powers on Dark Eldar units. The way I saw it originally was that the Codex powers are limited to Codex: Eldar units, as in their description it says "Eldar unit". They didn't FaQ or Errata this so I took it as them saying "Codex powers get used on Codex units, if you want a Farseer to do things for a Dark Eldar army choose powers from the BGB". And while I understand they are battle brothers, Codex trumps all from what I know. He thinks that since Dark Eldar are Eldar it should work, and also since they are Battle Brothers it should be allowed. What would you consider in this situation?

If it specifically says eldar unit then dark eldar cannot benefit from it. Dark eldar are NOT eldar. They are two separate codexes and two separate armies. Fluff != rules

Well I"m a bit biased but I would agree. Dark Eldar are Eldar after all. The word Eldar is present. Since they are battle bros. then there shouldn't be any effect from the ally rules. It is still a rather sticky point. If you can't agree then dice off on it. I just run the farseer/Eldrad in the unit and then have them target themselves, since the rest is all one unit then it should be fine.


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Sothas wrote:If it specifically says eldar unit then dark eldar cannot benefit from it. Dark eldar are NOT eldar. They are two separate codexes and two separate armies. Fluff != rules

Actually a lot of the new dexes would argue that. The rule says that the Eldar unit. How are dark ELDAR not eldar?

The issue is that the Farseer can only cast the power on a unit of Codex: Eldar.

The question that arises is if a DE IC joins a unit of Guardians, is that unit an Eldar unit?

How about the fact that Dark Eldar jetbikes get the 2d6 assault move that all Eldar jetbikes get? That would seem to me to be a pretty clear precedent for the rules term "Eldar" applying to units from both codexes. If they said "units from Codex: Eldar", it'd be clearly disallowed, but since they didn't I'm inclined to believe that they intend that you can indeed benefit from Fortune and Guide as a Dark Eldar.

Loch wrote:How about the fact that Dark Eldar jetbikes get the 2d6 assault move that all Eldar jetbikes get? That would seem to me to be a pretty clear precedent for the rules term "Eldar" applying to units from both codexes. If they said "units from Codex: Eldar", it'd be clearly disallowed, but since they didn't I'm inclined to believe that they intend that you can indeed benefit from Fortune and Guide as a Dark Eldar.

I do not think I would take such a correlation to work in a totally different type of system. Also, they didn't really intend for it. While Dark Eldar, Eldar, and allies was around in 4th Edition they could not ally together to my knowledge. The "Eldar unit" was to show that it could only be other Eldar benefiting from it. I see it as an Eldar unit = Codex: Eldar. A Dark Eldar unit = Codex: Dark Eldar. Interesting to see it's just as jumbled of an opinion on the internet.

Akroma06 wrote:Well I"m a bit biased but I would agree. Dark Eldar are Eldar after all. The word Eldar is present. Since they are battle bros. then there shouldn't be any effect from the ally rules. It is still a rather sticky point. If you can't agree then dice off on it. I just run the farseer/Eldrad in the unit and then have them target themselves, since the rest is all one unit then it should be fine.

Chaos Space Marines are not Space Marines, or vice versa.

Example - Does the Dark Eldar book have rules that only affect "Eldar" or does all of their stuff say, Dark Eldar units? No...

+ + +

If you want Eldar in your DE list, great... do it. However, don't make the rules harder than they need to be, use the BRB powers.

The Codex: Eldar powers only work on "Eldar" units when stated as such.... If a power were meant to work on Dark Eldar and Eldar, it would say as such. WHo knows, maybe they will FAQ it and you all will get your DE Guide and Fortune... that only works on Eldar right now... but until then, you're bumming.

There is no rule that says, Dark Eldar are Eldar... they are, Darker... kinda like Chaos Space Marines are not Space Marines... they are, Chaosier...

Cheers,

The Eldar powers Guide and Fortune can only target an Eldar unit, however the power will benefit the entire unit. If the Farseer themself is attached to a unit of DE they can cast the power on themselves and the DE will get the benefit. The same would apply to Tau for that matter. The new powers that are generated don't have this limitation.

Don't see a problem with that though! ^^

Tactica wrote:
Chaos Space Marines are not Space Marines, or vice versa.

And they don't have rules that could effect the other either. Chapter Tactics is specific in what is replaced. Marks only affect Chaos units since they say the unit with icon of (X) gets benefit (Y).

Tactica wrote:
Example - Does the Dark Eldar book have rules that only affect "Eldar" or does all of their stuff say, Dark Eldar units? No...

Actually it doesn't have any rules that say Dark Eldar units. PFP is the only thing that is close and it specifically says models with PFP get the following benefits.

Tactica wrote:
If you want Eldar in your DE list, great... do it. However, don't make the rules harder than they need to be, use the BRB powers.

How does that make them harder? It seems rather straight forward to me.

Tactica wrote:
The Codex: Eldar powers only work on "Eldar" units when stated as such.... If a power were meant to work on Dark Eldar and Eldar, it would say as such. WHo knows, maybe they will FAQ it and you all will get your DE Guide and Fortune... that only works on Eldar right now... but until then, you're bumming.

How is Eldar not dark ELDAR. They are the same race one is more evil than the other. Are Dark Elves elves? The name eldar is in their name.

Tactica wrote:
There is no rule that says, Dark Eldar are Eldar... they are, Darker... kinda like Chaos Space Marines are not Space Marines... they are, Chaosier...

No but they do say that Chaos Marines are Marines. Dark Eldar likewise are still Eldar.

grazingshot wrote:The Eldar powers Guide and Fortune can only target an Eldar unit, however the power will benefit the entire unit. If the Farseer themself is attached to a unit of DE they can cast the power on themselves and the DE will get the benefit. The same would apply to Tau for that matter. The new powers that are generated don't have this limitation.

This is what I do and I don't have any problems with it.

This has come up at least 4 time and answerd. IC rules say the IC becomes part of the unit he joins. Battle Brothers ICs can join allied units. The power targets an Eldar unit. If the Dark Eldar IC is in that unit he gets the power. So a farseer can target a fire dragon squad with vect and fourtune/guide. A farseer cannot target the wytch unit he joined as these are not an eldar unit. The other FAQs specified codex specific marines etc... I don't think they left this one out because it does not need clarification. Eldar unit = units described in the eldar codex.

similarly if you have two necrons playing each other, immoteks lightning comes twice a turn because it happens in every necron shooting phase.

my only questions are:

Are "JUMP" Infantry, Infantry?

Are "PAN"cakes, Cakes?

Are "Si"Miles, Miles?

questions only someone with a higher range of understanding, thought, and desire can answer......

The Codex Space Marine FAQ goes through laborious repetition to point out rules that only affect Codex: Space Marines and not other kinds of Space Marines. The Codex Eldar FAQ does not do this for "Eldar".

Eldar are Eldar, Dark Eldar are dark eldar. The purpose of the wording in the eldar powers section is blindingly clear. If you wan to take Eldrad with DE have him use the rulebook powers. If you want to have a 2++ shadowfield with fortune then attach the IC to an Eldar unit.

BlueDagger wrote:Eldar are Eldar, Dark Eldar are dark eldar. The purpose of the wording in the eldar powers section is blindingly clear. If you wan to take Eldrad with DE have him use the rulebook powers. If you want to have a 2++ shadowfield with fortune then attach the IC to an Eldar unit.

How can you talk about the purpose of wording when the wording was written without the current ruleset in mind? The purpose at the time of writing was clear, in that Eldar could only (by the book) play with Eldar and so "a friendly Eldar unit" at the time described all friendly units. In the original context of 4th (and 5th) edition this was fine. In the context of sixth edition it's unclear whether it should be "all friendly Codex: Eldar units" or "all friendly units that are Eldar" or even "all friendly units". You can't make any assumptions about the lack of clarification in the FAQ because some other codices were clarified with "friendly units" and others with "units from Codex: Blah" with apparently no rhyme or reason for those parts that were not FAQ'ed except the possibility that it was an oversight. Having said that, without the clarification of the FAQ I feel comfortable not offering fortune to Tau (DE is more debatable, because they are technically Eldar).

Icon720 wrote:This has come up at least 4 time and answerd.

Please give a thread reference. I haven't seen it before and am struggling to find it.

Icon720 wrote:IC rules say the IC becomes part of the unit he joins. Battle Brothers ICs can join allied units. The power targets an Eldar unit. If the Dark Eldar IC is in that unit he gets the power. So a farseer can target a fire dragon squad with vect and fourtune/guide. A farseer cannot target the wytch unit he joined as these are not an eldar unit.

This is the rule I played in my games yesterday and it really wasn't a show stopper. Despite this I feel like the rule is unclear and ought to be clarified by FAQ.

What if the Eldar player opted generate psychic powers from divination or telepathy (see Eldar Faq), instead of an Eldar psychic power from the codex? As the limit comes from the descriptions in the powers, and not the descriptions of the Farseer or how Farseers use psychic powers, it seems you could just roll for powers and then use those powers on the Dark Eldar units instead of the rules from Codex: Eldar if you plan on allying up together.

If you've got a grief against the new allies rules then you probably should stay away from threads like these.

Dark Eldar are Eldar. Burna is a fire weapon (avatar, c'tan) . Pulse rifle are plasma weapons.

Fluff are suitable for reference in rules. Precedents have been set long ago. I'd even argue that Guide may be cast on a Tau unit.

The Eldar codex is old. It's not fifth, it's midfourth. The intentions of the codex be damned, it's full of obsolete rules and every unit costs 20-50% to much (except eldrad obviously). It is the intentions of the new brb you need to worry about, and it seem perfectly clear that your allowed to replace "codex pronoun" with "friendly".

Asdrubael Vect's Ancient Nemesis ability states it works against Eldar and Dark Eldar.

Odd that they would mention the same group twice /sarcasm

evildrspock wrote:What if the Eldar player opted generate psychic powers from divination or telepathy (see Eldar Faq), instead of an Eldar psychic power from the codex? As the limit comes from the descriptions in the powers, and not the descriptions of the Farseer or how Farseers use psychic powers, it seems you could just roll for powers and then use those powers on the Dark Eldar units instead of the rules from Codex: Eldar if you plan on allying up together.

This is how I take it now. If you don't want to have to cast the power on Codex: Eldar units, choose from the BRB. This is why you can switch them out for the BRB powers in the first place rather than mix and match or something of the like.

Mahtamori wrote:If you've got a grief against the new allies rules then you probably should stay away from threads like these.

Dark Eldar are Eldar. Burna is a fire weapon (avatar, c'tan) . Pulse rifle are plasma weapons.

Fluff are suitable for reference in rules. Precedents have been set long ago. I'd even argue that Guide may be cast on a Tau unit.

The Eldar codex is old. It's not fifth, it's midfourth. The intentions of the codex be damned, it's full of obsolete rules and every unit costs 20-50% to much (except eldrad obviously). It is the intentions of the new brb you need to worry about, and it seem perfectly clear that your allowed to replace "codex pronoun" with "friendly".

Until it is FaQ'd, this is just an assumption.

If Dark Eldar aren't Eldar, why did they use a whole page of Space Marine FAQ saying Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc aren't Space Marines but nothing about Dark Eldar?

To avoid giving tehm benefits. Same as they replacd "friendly units" with "Blood Angel" units in the BA codex errata

Storm Bolters, despite firing the same ammunition as Bolters, do not benefit from Sternguard special rounds because they are NOT Bolters in the rules

Same as Dark Eldar are *not* Eldar. Crevab also pointed out that, as far as GW are concerned, DE and Eldar are separate.