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Reading the codex it would seem that you could get rerolls even if you use your doomfist as it says a model equipped with the greatsword gets reroll to hit/or/wound. I get the maximum attacks now regardless with doomfist and sword so five on the charge. Iyt does not say that you have to use the greatsword to get the benefit of rerolls. It wasn't FaQed either.

There is a question in there, i just know it. ;-)

As it happens i agree with you, and argued that very thing in another thread.

The Dark Eldar Djin Blade is worded similarly. Guess what the consensus on that one is.

felixcat wrote:
Reading the codex it would seem that you could get rerolls even if you use your doomfist as it says a model equipped with the greatsword gets reroll to hit/or/wound. I get the maximum attacks now regardless with doomfist and sword so five on the charge. Iyt does not say that you have to use the greatsword to get the benefit of rerolls. It wasn't FaQed either.

so to be clear how I am reading it now is, you get an extra attack now for CCW so 4 total since the both the doomfist and the greatsword are both not specialized weapons, 5 on the charge. As well you strike at 10 str 4 inititive? since neither of them are unwieldy. As per the FAQ it still says dreadknights are at 6 str since they are not walkers(5th edition) but the new rules does not limit the 2x STR to only walkers

it is limited to dreanoughts only, being a dreadnought CCW RAW (joke!!!)

Doesnt it still fall under useing 2 dif CCW though, you still have to choose which you use right?

Correct, you need to choose which one you are striking with, but the Greatsword confers the rerolls to a "model equipped with" not a model wielding it.

epic, dreadknight just got a whole lot better why would someone never take a greatsword!!

I just played a game with a Dreadknight equipped with sword and teleport pack, he did nasty things to those space wolves.

Ub3rb3n wrote:epic, dreadknight just got a whole lot better why would someone never take a greatsword!!

Because its expensive.

Its worth the cost, but you may not be able to afford it all the time.

See "More than One Weapon" on p.51
It's either DCCW with 2x Strength OR Greatsword with rerolls

Crevab is right.
That logic won't get you anywhere. Numerous weapons don't say anything about giving bonuses while attacking or wielding. They just give them. That doesn't mean that they give benefits just by existing.

Macok wrote:Crevab is right.
That logic won't get you anywhere. Numerous weapons don't say anything about giving bonuses while attacking or wielding. They just give them. That doesn't mean that they give benefits just by existing.

I would agree normally, but according to the codex is says "A model with a nemesis greatsword rerolls failed to hit, failed to wound, and can reroll armor pen"

so it is not saying that it is only the greatsword that can just the model all together. I believe the 2 close combat weapons rule is more for something along the lines of an inquisitor for he can have a daemonblade and a powerfist. So he wouldn't be able to gain the daemonblades 2 special abilities if he was using the power fist and vise versa.

With the wording it currently has, it would technically apply to its ranged attacks as well.

*sigh* It is a CCW people. It is only an unclear wording if you -want- it to be unclear. ''A model with a nemesis greatsword rerolls failed rolls to hit, to wond and can reroll armor penetration rolls.'' As long as you use the greatsword, as it was IN THE PREVIOUS EDITION, and the one before that.. all the way back to the 2nd Ed. if you allocate attacks to be made with the doomfist those are made with the doomfists rules. just as an infantry model armed with a powerweapon and a powerfist. Don't try to claim benefits you obviously cannot claim 'just because you want to'. It is quite childish.

Grey Templar wrote:With the wording it currently has, it would technically apply to its ranged attacks as well.

No it doesn't. You want to go that road? Let me open my codex, Striking Scorpions:
Scorpion Chainsword: "This is a one-handed weapon that adds +1 S to the model's attacks". Great, my pistols are S5 because why not? It doesn't say in CC, I do not have to wield it, use ir or anything. It just gives me permanent +1 to S when I attack. Shooting attacks are also attacks.
Biting Blade: "[...] This is a two-handed weapon that adds +1 S to the model's attacks [...]". Once again, +1S to all attacks anywhere with everything!
Chainsabres: "[...] A model with chainsabres has +1 Attack and can re-roll all failed to hit and to wound rolls." Cool, rerolls to shooting as a bonus!
I could go for almost every weapon in my codex with this "logic". No, it DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

Grey Templar wrote:With the wording it currently has, it would technically apply to its ranged attacks as well.

I was paraphrasing is says "a model with a great sword can re roll it's hits and armor pen in close combat"

Shows how much I've studied the DK entry before today

An ability's '+1 to strength' only applies to the model it's part of the wargear for (specifically it's strength score), not the profiles of the ranged weapons the model may be carrying. (well, unless it says it does anyway, permissive ruleset and all that). You do not (typically) use the model's strength score to determine the strength of it's ranged attacks in other words and modifying the model's strength score doesn't do anything to change this. That said, What the eldar may or may not have listed in their codex has very little to do with the wording used for the Nemesis Greatsword.

As written the Nemesis Greatsword grants the model the ability to re-roll failed 'to-hit', 'to-wound', and 'penetration' rolls in close combat. What it does 'not' say is that the Dreadknight (or any other model armed with one i suppose) needs to use the Greatsword in combat to benefit from this.

No one has brought forth an argument (that is properly referenced, rather than personal opinion or 'how they previously played it in prior editions') which indicates players have any reason not to follow the above.

It is a weapon with a special ability. If it isn't the chosen weapon being attacked with, it's abilities aren't used.

There's nothing to suggest that it breaks that rule

But 5th edition was usually clear about giving abilities if you wield the weapon vs have/bear/are equipped with the weapon.

My best example was brought up earlier, Inquisitor with a daemonblade. Most of the abilities it can have require the weapon to be wielded, except the one that grants eternal warrior and FnP, that one is for the "bearer". That meant the inquisitor got those abilities at all times, not just when he had the weapon out for an assault.

The greatsword is pretty clear "a model equipped with a Nemesis Greatsword rerolls failed rolls to hit, wound and armour penetration"

Unfortunate that they never made a FAQ for weapons with abilities outside combat, but as "bearer" is just one of the synonyms they use for models with a weapon (See DE things like the Djin Blade and Animus Vitae), in combat if you're not using that Daemonblade, you don't get those abilities. (See the FAQ on 2 daemonblades)

P.51 More than one weapon is your reference. Choose only one to use their abilities.

Ub3rb3n wrote:

felixcat wrote:
Reading the codex it would seem that you could get rerolls even if you use your doomfist as it says a model equipped with the greatsword gets reroll to hit/or/wound. I get the maximum attacks now regardless with doomfist and sword so five on the charge. Iyt does not say that you have to use the greatsword to get the benefit of rerolls. It wasn't FaQed either.

so to be clear how I am reading it now is, you get an extra attack now for CCW so 4 total since the both the doomfist and the greatsword are both not specialized weapons, 5 on the charge. As well you strike at 10 str 4 inititive? since neither of them are unwieldy. As per the FAQ it still says dreadknights are at 6 str since they are not walkers(5th edition) but the new rules does not limit the 2x STR to only walkers

Did I miss the 6th edtion ruling were MC can get the double ST from DCCW.

Yes, in 5th a DCCW only affected Walkers, now it just says any model equipped with gets x2 S and AP 2

The DCCW no longer limits the double strength to Dreadnaughts. And iirc the GK FAQ that clarified the limitation was removed.

rigeld2 wrote:The DCCW no longer limits the double strength to Dreadnaughts. And iirc the GK FAQ that clarified the limitation was removed.

Nice, dose suck for the hammer. Can't see that being taking much.

Yeah, especially as it (the Nemesis Hammer) is a specialist weapon and will deny the model the extra attack that they'd otherwise get from having two DCCWs or one DCCW and a Greatsword too.

<sarcasm>'Concussive' is totally worth losing an attack and 10 extra points, am i right? </sarcasm>

As for the 'page 51' reference: No one is arguing that the dreadknights' controller has to choose which of it's weapons it is attacking with in close combat. (either the DCCW 'or' the Greatsword; not both at the same time). What people 'have' been saying is based on how it is worded in the GK codex the Greatsword grants an ability to the model. (as such it doesn't have to ever be used in combat to provide this ability and you are free to use the DCCW instead)

If the Greatsword was a talisman or other piece of wargear with the exact same wording i don't think we'd even be having this discussion; is it the fact that it is also a melee weapon that has folk undecided on it?

*headdesk*

This section of the forums saps my will to live...

There, there, it's not as bad as it seems right now.

You will be just fine, if you give it some time.

So my consensus is since it says "a model equipped with a nemesis greatsword re-rolls to hit, to wound and armor penetration in close comabt" that if I equip a dreadknight with it and he has a DCWW and i use the DCWW i can do all that it says i can do when i equip a model with a greatsword.

I wasnt too sure if i agreed with it, but then I looked through the tyranid codex today and it is the same example as the great sword with the poison attacks its a weapon but causes all attacks to poison