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Well with the release of 40k 6th done, its now the countdown to Warhammer 9th. Which going on the 40K/Fantasy release model for the past seven or eight years will be with us in June/July of 2014, so the question I am pondering. Considering we are looking like at best we will have one Fantasy book from the months left this year, possibly two or if we're lucky three next, and possibly one before it comes out in 2014. Do folks want their armies asap, or would they rather wait for the year after 9th launches? Do you want at least three years with a book set up fully for the current edition, or are you willing to risk the book doesn't get hosed by any rules changes by having it next year.

The armies we are looking at who are due/desperate for an update..

Dark Elves
Bretonnians
Dwarves
Wood Elves
Lizardmen
Beastmen

Obviously not all of them are going to be done in time for 9th, also the deeper we get into next year the more likely they will be aware of any changes they are considering. So its really from now to the end of next summer which will be the danger period of books coming out only to be hurt by the new release a year later. With luck any late autumn/winter book next year and any release in early 2014 will be like the Necrons where they know whats coming, and have planning accordingly for the book.

So opinions, do folks care either way, does the idea of having a book that is great for a year, then falls to the pits again concern folks. Have GW turned that corner and will most books now be good no matter their age?

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Well with the release of 40k 6th done, its now the countdown to Warhammer 9th.

I have the impression 9th ed WHFB will be pretty much of a 8.1 version, with a few quick fixes but nothing major so having an 8th ed book won't be too much of an unbalance.

I think that will depend on how Warhammer sales have faired. If there has been any kind of noticable drop in slaes since 8th launched then I'd expect major changes.

If not and for all the net griping and folks saying they have dropped out of Fantasy, its not effected GW at all, you might be right.

If steadfast is not fixed, I'll end up only playing locally with house rules that allow it to be disrupted.

That is the only issue I have with 8th.

That said, I am not looking forward to my armies being updated and having all of their character customization taken away. I play HE and DE and they have some of the best magic items, and easily the highest number of useful magic items, which will be dramatically cut down into 9 or 10 like the new books.

I always enjoy model updates and additions, but leave my magic items alone. All it does is make for cookie cutter builds that HAVE to be taken as all the other options are gone.

I disagree. I think that Lotr is next. Giving 9th one more year on the shelves.

I also disagree about the magic items. I want a lot of army specific items gone. This is mainly because it'll make it easier for me to learn the opponents rules. You have what item? It does what? However, I want the common magic item selection to AT THE VERY LEAST double in size and selection. I want so many good standard items that its hard to make a cookie cutter.

As for rules. I want cannons to be a little worse. Not much though. Steadfast breakable and magic a little less random. I want any spell cast on above a 15+ unable to miscast.

Well Hobbit is out next, end of the year from what seems most reliable rumour, and ties into the film.

I would imagine with a two year Hobbit window, we won't see much done to Lotr until after then.

From what I see in the midwest, with fantasy tournaments pushing 80+ people at a time. with new events continually poping up, I'd say fantasy is doing well.


8th has a few minor issues, steadfast and lack of magic item selection.

I play DOC and TK, and both are solid enough that I am fine waiting on changes. Unless a quick FAQ expanding mout options for TK so I can do an all horse army or a all chariot army.

Stoupe wrote:I disagree. I think that Lotr is next. Giving 9th one more year on the shelves.

Agree with Morathi, Hobbit first. And with there being 2 Hobbit films it will probably be even longer before LoTR is updated.

I also disagree about the magic items. I want a lot of army specific items gone. This is mainly because it'll make it easier for me to learn the opponents rules. You have what item? It does what? However, I want the common magic item selection to AT THE VERY LEAST double in size and selection. I want so many good standard items that its hard to make a cookie cutter.

Agree.

As for rules. I want cannons to be a little worse. Not much though. Steadfast breakable and magic a little less random. I want any spell cast on above a 15+ unable to miscast.

What?! You've lost me now. Cannons are fine, for some armies its their only real way of taking out the Large Creatures that are popping up all over the place these days.

Change steadfast yes, but magic, you want magic to be made STRONGER? You crazy? Magic is my biggest gripe with 8th, by a long way. There are too many 'auto win' spells out there, making them 'no miscast' is silly. Thats the whole point of the bigger spells, theay are harder to control, and therefore, easier to miscast.

Seriously, you already want a 9th edition?

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Stoupe wrote:I disagree. I think that Lotr is next. Giving 9th one more year on the shelves.

Agree with Morathi, Hobbit first. And with there being 2 Hobbit films it will probably be even longer before LoTR is updated.

Hobbit. Lotr. Same thing to me. I think they will be the same system much like wmhd if not just 100% inclusion. Or maybe an early late war model like fow.

As for rules. I want cannons to be a little worse. Not much though. Steadfast breakable and magic a little less random. I want any spell cast on above a 15+ unable to miscast.

What?! You've lost me now. Cannons are fine, for some armies its their only real way of taking out the Large Creatures that are popping up all over the place these days.

Change steadfast yes, but magic, you want magic to be made STRONGER? You crazy? Magic is my biggest gripe with 8th, by a long way. There are too many 'auto win' spells out there, making them 'no miscast' is silly. Thats the whole point of the bigger spells, theay are harder to control, and therefore, easier to miscast.

While i agree cannons are good defense against monsters. They are a little too accurate for their points. I don't like being able to snipe characters with cannons. I'd like for the first bounce to scatter say d3 inches and then use the artillery die to determine distance bounced. I don't think cannons were anywhere near as accurate as they are made in game now.

I want magic to be less random. Not stronger. I don't want unluck streaks of getting 4 power dice all game. I want it more consistent. As for the harder spells I agree they're harder to control therefore easier to miscast. But I don't like someone able to get irresistible with them. They are so hard to control, how can you get it so controlled to dodge my dispell attempt?

Stoupe wrote:
Hobbit. Lotr. Same thing to me. I think they will be the same system much like wmhd if not just 100% inclusion. Or maybe an early late war model like fow.

Fair enough, i think it will be like another spinoff like WoTR, but, hey, it could go either way....

While i agree cannons are good defense against monsters. They are a little too accurate for their points. I don't like being able to snipe characters with cannons. I'd like for the first bounce to scatter say d3 inches and then use the artillery die to determine distance bounced. I don't think cannons were anywhere near as accurate as they are made in game now.

I know where you are coming from. Just take out their ability to snipe somehow and IMO they would be fine. They SHOULD be able to mow thorugh tightly packed infantry, they SHOULD be able to smack large creatures off the board, they SHOULD be able to decimate heavy cav, but they SHOULDNT be able to hit the EXACT guy they were aiming from...especially when they neemy is moving....totally agree.

I want magic to be less random. Not stronger. I don't want unluck streaks of getting 4 power dice all game. I want it more consistent. As for the harder spells I agree they're harder to control therefore easier to miscast. But I don't like someone able to get irresistible with them. They are so hard to control, how can you get it so controlled to dodge my dispell attempt?

Ahhhh, now im back with you...The Winds of Magic are fine, yes it gives you a downer if you are playing magic heavy and dont get a good roll, but then it was your choice to go magic heavy in the first place...

On the subject of miscasts, i can see where you are coming from before. Your first post made NO sense to me....I think that, just because it is harder to control the more powerful spells doesnt mean that the mage wont be able to. They should still be able to irresistable them, as they manage to focus all the power they have into the spell (not dodging your dispel, just overpowering it, regardless of how good it was, thats how i see irresistable - notresistable, not 'magic that dodges ). However, i think that it needs to harder to irresistable a spell as the cost of the spell increases (not sure how to do this, just throwing it out there), thereofre making the uber spells less dangerous.

I have a feeling they will include a similar 'personal dispel' as 6th has just done with Psychic powers (a chance to naturally resist the spell as opposed to someone else doing it for you). This could help balance out some of the killer spells

Revenent Reiko wrote:

I want magic to be less random. Not stronger. I don't want unluck streaks of getting 4 power dice all game. I want it more consistent. As for the harder spells I agree they're harder to control therefore easier to miscast. But I don't like someone able to get irresistible with them. They are so hard to control, how can you get it so controlled to dodge my dispell attempt?

Ahhhh, now im back with you...The Winds of Magic are fine, yes it gives you a downer if you are playing magic heavy and dont get a good roll, but then it was your choice to go magic heavy in the first place...

On the subject of miscasts, i can see where you are coming from before. Your first post made NO sense to me....I think that, just because it is harder to control the more powerful spells doesnt mean that the mage wont be able to. They should still be able to irresistable them, as they manage to focus all the power they have into the spell (not dodging your dispel, just overpowering it, regardless of how good it was, thats how i see irresistable - notresistable, not 'magic that dodges ). However, i think that it needs to harder to irresistable a spell as the cost of the spell increases (not sure how to do this, just throwing it out there), thereofre making the uber spells less dangerous.

I have a feeling they will include a similar 'personal dispel' as 6th has just done with Psychic powers (a chance to naturally resist the spell as opposed to someone else doing it for you). This could help balance out some of the killer spells

This is where I disagree. Some armies need this. My vc it REALLY hurts when I can't get off 7 power dice. I just then don't have enough to do anything but respawn and pray he doesn't get off anything that decimates me next turn. Some armies are just too magically inclined to get a roll of 2 or 3. Maybe make the winds 4d3 that way it garuntees 4 dice minimum with max 12.

I agree make the casting a bit harder to irrisistible on big spells. Maybe make it require triple sixes to irresistable on spells with casting value of 15+.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Seriously, you already want a 9th edition?

Its not so much about want, but an inevitability.

To be fair plenty of folks where convinced 6th wasn't coming out this year as well, but it is quite obvious without much digging the revenue stream method GW has selected to use via its main two product lines. Every two years an alternating system gets revamped, be it a big change or little one, this goes back to 2004, it was also the same for the three editions previous to the Lotr bubble. If not for Lotr it would have gone back to 96.


Fantasy 5th 1996
40K third 1998
Fantasy 6th 2000
40K 4th 2004
Fantasy 7th 2006
40K 5th 2008
Fantasy 8th 2010
40K 6th 2012
Fantasy 9th 2014?

I could agree with the possibility of Hobbit slowing it up, but not if it comes out at the end of this year as folks are suggesting. That would tie in with another release next December for the 2nd film, and 9th to come out as normal in 2014.


As to my own question, I think I would rather have Dark Elves near the end of the 8th window, or just after 9th launches, I'd not want to be caught out like books have been previously. Hopefully, GW has turned that hill, it seems 6th 40K has not really obliterated any books, in fact some have gained strength, so I hope for the same with 9th Fantasy.

Stoupe wrote:This is where I disagree. Some armies need this. My vc it REALLY hurts when I can't get off 7 power dice. I just then don't have enough to do anything but respawn and pray he doesn't get off anything that decimates me next turn. Some armies are just too magically inclined to get a roll of 2 or 3. Maybe make the winds 4d3 that way it garuntees 4 dice minimum with max 12.

I understand, a couple of other armies have the same problem. To me however, that comes down to balance overall, VC shouldnt be limited to HAVING to use magic (if that makes sense?). Yes, by all means they are a magical army, but they should have some way of mitigating Winds rolls. 4D3 isnt a bad solution, or some items that increase power dice generated (to a limit). Also, making the uber spells less powerful/harder to cast will help you on a low roll, as you wont have as much of a worry the following turn.

I agree make the casting a bit harder to irrisistible on big spells. Maybe make it require triple sixes to irresistable on spells with casting value of 15+.

Agreed, feel we should move this to proposed rules though...

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Stoupe wrote:This is where I disagree. Some armies need this. My vc it REALLY hurts when I can't get off 7 power dice. I just then don't have enough to do anything but respawn and pray he doesn't get off anything that decimates me next turn. Some armies are just too magically inclined to get a roll of 2 or 3. Maybe make the winds 4d3 that way it garuntees 4 dice minimum with max 12.

I understand, a couple of other armies have the same problem. To me however, that comes down to balance overall, VC shouldnt be limited to HAVING to use magic (if that makes sense?). Yes, by all means they are a magical army, but they should have some way of mitigating Winds rolls. 4D3 isnt a bad solution, or some items that increase power dice generated (to a limit). Also, making the uber spells less powerful/harder to cast will help you on a low roll, as you wont have as much of a worry the following turn.

I agree. VC shouldn't have to. But the army was designed to. Half the power of the army is in the ability to raise my men back up and then rape them with a small augment spell making me asf. Even without going to the number six spell it is hard to get this done with less than 7 power dice. At least TK have the thing that adds d3 to thier pool. I do have an item that can add two dice but I have to sacrifice previous turn dispell dice. Which is nice, but I'd rather it be something to help me design to own that phase than an auto take just to try to survive.

I agree make the casting a bit harder to irrisistible on big spells. Maybe make it require triple sixes to irresistable on spells with casting value of 15+.

Agreed, feel we should move this to proposed rules though...

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Have GW turned that corner and will most books now be good no matter their age?

The game is certainly more balanced than it was in 7th so this issue is not the problem that it used to be.

As for the older books, they are still competitive. The problem they have is that they have a limited choice of units, and the lack the punch/hard choices that the newer books have. Though the main reason I'd like to see the update is to edit the magic item choices - and that Lore of Athel Loren is useful.

I really hope GW sticks to it's guns in the direction it has taken with 8th ed and lately with 6 ed. I'm not sure I agree with the cinematic description, but I do think GW encourages players to make the game their own in a way that 'competitive'/'tournament' focused games do not.

Whilst I take on board the issues with magic, I happily trade the current mega spells for the old magic phase. Yes the new spells are nasty, but so was the death by a thousand cuts of the 20 dice magic phase in the old edition. Personally I'd like the magic phase tweaked so that if you channel and roll a 1 you lose a power/dispel dice,and that when rolling for the winds of magic if you roll a double 1, then there are no winds of magic, on a double 6 all doubles are irresistible or whatever.

Stoupe wrote:I agree. VC shouldn't have to. But the army was designed to. Half the power of the army is in the ability to raise my men back up and then rape them with a small augment spell making me asf. Even without going to the number six spell it is hard to get this done with less than 7 power dice. At least TK have the thing that adds d3 to thier pool. I do have an item that can add two dice but I have to sacrifice previous turn dispell dice. Which is nice, but I'd rather it be something to help me design to own that phase than an auto take just to try to survive.

True, but then thats a balance issue. If there were items in the BRB that gave an/more than one extra power dice, it wouldnt be so bad....

EDIT: apparently my Quote pyramid ability has failed me

Ehh then he shouldnt have asked what we'd like for 9th edition.

i meant just our little discussion on the Uber spells....

I want to see Lizards redone as soon as possible. Then Skaven maybe?

Rivet wrote:I want to see Lizards redone as soon as possible. Then Skaven maybe?

Why? Both these armies have great books right now. Sure the terridactyls could use a buff and the kroxigors in units of skinks needs better rules but they both have great troops great generals and great specials/rares.

Books that need it: beastmen Brets and wood elves. WoC/dwarves should come before them. Dwarves because they need to fix having 10+ dispell scrolls and WoC needs to have more options then just chosen star spam. WoC needs a wizard without armor so they can take a level 3 and a lord. Demon princes need a buff and cheapened. All specials besides chosen need reexamining and so do the rares except the hell cannon and war shrine.

Brets wood elves and beast need ones close to 9th so that gw doesnt need to worry about them til 11th.

Well Lizards because I want them to get hit with the balance hammer that most of the other 8th edition books have been hit with, and Skaven simply to have them updated more in line with 8th. The easy fix codex release theory like they did with Empire and Vampire Counts.

I know Beastmen, Brets, and wood elves need them desperately. and I would agree they come first but yeah.

I think 8th edition will be with us for a long while yet. Its got relativly few flaws compared to past editions.

Its sadly got nothing about flaws or how good the system is. GW makes a ton of money each time they update because most of those playing the game upgrades with them.

There are still two years to go mind, we are only at the half way stage, but in army book terms there will probably be only those 4-5 releases between now and then.

I'll be surprised if we see Wood Elves before next winter though, if Wood Elf players are lucky they might be the last book before 9th. Although I could see them slipping to just after. Hopefully their Elf army will be as equally viable as their Wood Spirits force though when it finally arrives.

Since we're talking fantasy, er, Fantasy, here's what I'd like to see:

1) Get rid of Steadfast.
2) Make Fear something more than "temporary hesitation", make it at the least like it was in 7th.
3) Restore many/most magic items that were expropriated from the recent army books, at least in the BRB list.
4) Deconflate Irresistible Force and Miscast! There is NO good reason for combining the two, despite whatever wack fluff GW came up with in 8th. Go back to 7th and separate them.
5) Revise the absurdly random "winds of magic" mechanic.

(It's way beyond fantasy to hope for a return of TK's unique magic system, but I'll do it anyway.)

I want my Beastmen update now! A new army book would not hurt us I belive, in fact. I would propably spend more money on my herd then

Trondheim wrote:I want my Beastmen update now! A new army book would not hurt us I belive, in fact. I would propably spend more money on my herd then

Beastmen need a new book about as much as Ogres.

marielle wrote:

Trondheim wrote:I want my Beastmen update now! A new army book would not hurt us I belive, in fact. I would propably spend more money on my herd then

Beastmen need a new book about as much as Ogres.

Um, no? Ogres are easily a top 5 book right now, Beastmen are a bottom 3, just before Brets and Wood Elves.

Hmmm, either marielle got spanked by some Beastmen OR he's only played incompetant ogre players

I would like to see WE redone. I think they have one of the oldest books... plus I want to play them. I think Dwarfs need to be updated just because some of their older rules don't mesh well with the current edition. Beastmen need an update but they seem so unpopular I wouldn't be surprised if they took a backseat to other armies. I play LM and they could use one just to weaken their magic a bit.

I really hope Brets get an update soon, playing against an 8th army with them is quite a challenge

8th is pretty damn good from a rules standpoint. It has the modularity to be easily fixed as well. You want steadfast fixed? That takes 1 sentence in a FAQ and it applies to all armies. Is one magic item OP? You fix one number on one page. I really don't see a lot that is bad.

As for armies, you can just look at old Ogres and new Ogres and old TK and new TK to see the amount of amazing new stuff they can do.

Dark Elves--don't know

Bretonnians--don't know

Dwarves--need major reworking, given magic items, or magic item allowances, spells, more units. They're competitive, but they don't match 8th.

Wood Elves--don't know wel

Lizardmen--I like 'em a lot, but their SC's are silly and a lot of units need reworking al all those magic items need to be scrapped. Probably some more units to play with too.

Beastmen--I feel bad for 'em. Those pretty new monsters should get new buffs. I can easily see cost reductions and maybe a TK-like 5+ armor save if they don't have anything better. Definately need more core choices.

DoK--just because they are competitive using the same 3 unit types doesn't mean they aren't broken. They need to redo them all. I'd like to see full race armies possible. If nothing else, do the WoC secret of having generic units and giving them marks, or whatever DoC equivalent.

High Elves--Teclis dies in a fire. All those silly magic items die with him.