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Under Shaken;

"Passengers can only make Snap Shots in their next shooting phase, but are otherwise unaffected"

Under Stunned;

"Passengers cannot shoot in their next shooting phase, but are otherwise unaffected."


Does this imply that even if they disembark (and are no longer passengers) in the next phase--they are still affected by the above? Which means, given that they cannot disembark if you cause a Wreck, you would always want to stun, then destroy a vehicle?

It does not do anything if they get out, as they are no longer passengers.

What if another units gets in the transport can they shoot?

DeathReaper wrote:It does not do anything if they get out, as they are no longer passengers.

I don't think this is correct.

The question is if whether the "must make snap shots/can't shoot" is tied to being passengers in general, or passengers at the time of the hit. I'm inclined to believe that it's the latter, based on the wording on the first paragraph on pg 80: "if the vehicle is wrecked or explodes... and surviving passengers are not locked in combat..."

It declares models no longer embarked on the transport as "passengers". So they shouldn't be able to shoot.

It reads as passengers of the transport to me, so if they are no longer passengers the rules no longer apply.. but YMMV

DeathReaper wrote:It reads as passengers of the transport to me, so if they are no longer passengers the rules no longer apply.. but YMMV

Sure, but in the "wrecked/exploded" case they're referred to as surviving passengers, which directly implies that any effects they suffered as a result of being passengers on the transport would persist as long as they would if they had stayed embarked.

Passengers (Past tense on Passengers) sure.

As in they used to be passengers.

DeathReaper wrote:Passengers (Past tense on Passengers) sure.

As in they used to be passengers.

If you want to dwell that much on semantics, "surviving" is actually a present participle. Implying that the models are, in fact, considered passengers.

It does not explicitly state that the restrictions are carried over.

Ostrakon wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:It does not do anything if they get out, as they are no longer passengers.

I don't think this is correct.

The question is if whether the "must make snap shots/can't shoot" is tied to being passengers in general, or passengers at the time of the hit. I'm inclined to believe that it's the latter, based on the wording on the first paragraph on pg 80: "if the vehicle is wrecked or explodes... and surviving passengers are not locked in combat..."

It declares models no longer embarked on the transport as "passengers". So they shouldn't be able to shoot.

Except that has nothing to do with stunned or shaken.

So why that works for explosions, if the stunned shaken models disembark, they can shoot just fine.

DeathReaper wrote:It does not explicitly state that the restrictions are carried over.

It does explicitly state that they are "surviving passengers", and that "passengers" have those restrictions until their next shooting phase.

Which has nothing to do with shaken or stunned.

P.S. "passengers" and "surviving passengers" are not the same thing.

Just like a Bolter and a Storm Bolter are not the same thing.

DeathReaper wrote:Which has nothing to do with shaken or stunned.

P.S. "passengers" and "surviving passengers" are not the same thing.

Just like a Bolter and a Storm Bolter are not the same thing.

A 'surviving passenger' is a subset of 'passenger'. 'Storm bolters' and 'bolters' are both separate subsets of 'bolt weaponry' (assuming by 'bolter' you mean a specific pattern of Astartes bolter, which is what 'bolter' refers to in the rules to keep things simple). Your anology is faulty, and you're applying what you think RAI is instead of reading the text of the rules.

It definitely has a bearing on shaken and stunned.

Unit A embarks on Transport X.
Unit A is a 'passenger' in Transport X now. by the rules on pg 80.
Transport X suffers a Crew Stunned Result.
'Passengers' of Transport X now cannot shoot until their next Shooting Phase.
Transport X gets Wrecked or Exploded.
Unit A disembarks from Transport X or is placed in the terrain made by the explosion.
Unit A is now a "surviving passenger" of Transport X, explicitly, by the rules on page 80.
Since "surviving passenger" is a subset of "passenger", the restrictions still apply to them.

Oddly enough if they had simply disembarked I think they could shoot normally by RAW.

Permissive ruleset tells us we can not apply an effect to surviving passengers, as they are not passengers.

It only applies to passengers, not surviving passengers.

DeathReaper wrote:Permissive ruleset tells us we can not apply an effect to surviving passengers, as they are not passengers.

It only applies to passengers, not surviving passengers.

Counterpoint: JotWW hits jetbikes because they are a subset of bike. Jetbikes aren't bikes, though, by your own semantics. Oh wait.

'Surviving passengers' are a subset of 'passengers'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I fail to see what "permissive ruleset" does to help your argument.

It tells us to deny normal shooting to passengers of shaken/stunned transports, and very clearly refers to the inhabitants of shaken/stunned transports that get wrecked or exploded as surviving passengers. The game is actually telling us exactly what to do.

Ostrakon wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Permissive ruleset tells us we can not apply an effect to surviving passengers, as they are not passengers.

It only applies to passengers, not surviving passengers.

Counterpoint: JotWW hits jetbikes because they are a subset of bike. Jetbikes aren't bikes, though, by your own semantics. Oh wait.

'Surviving passengers' are a subset of 'passengers'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I fail to see what "permissive ruleset" does to help your argument.

It tells us to deny normal shooting to passengers of shaken/stunned transports, and very clearly refers to the inhabitants of shaken/stunned transports that get wrecked or exploded as surviving passengers. The game is actually telling us exactly what to do.

So please tell me what is your time limit on when they stop being passengers?

One turn, two turns, how long?

By RAW they never stop being "surviving passengers", but that doesn't matter because the stunned/shaken shooting restrictions wear off on their next shooting phase.

I can't think of any other rules for which passenger-hood would matter, since most passenger-specific rules revolve around things that happen to the transport. With the transport destroyed nothing can happen to it that would affect its passengers.

Ostrakon wrote:By RAW they never stop being "surviving passengers", but that doesn't matter because the stunned/shaken shooting restrictions wear off on their next shooting phase.

I can't think of any other rules for which passenger-hood would matter, since most passenger-specific rules revolve around things that happen to the transport. With the transport destroyed nothing can happen to it that would affect its passengers.

Well if they 'never' stop being passengers, then I guess if the vehicle gets stunned or shaken again they cant shoot their next shooting phase then, can they?

Ostrakon wrote:Counterpoint: JotWW hits jetbikes because they are a subset of bike. Jetbikes aren't bikes, though, by your own semantics. Oh wait.

Jetbikes have an FAQ, albeit a 5th ed holdover, that state explicitly that jetbikes are a subset. (Not that this is needed anymore with the way bikes and jetbikes are coupled together in the units section).

Where is this stated for 'Surviving passengers' being a subset of 'passengers'?

Is it in the BRB?

DeathReaper wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Counterpoint: JotWW hits jetbikes because they are a subset of bike. Jetbikes aren't bikes, though, by your own semantics. Oh wait.

Jetbikes have an FAQ, albeit a 5th ed one, that state explicitly that jetbikes are a subset.

Where is this stated for 'Surviving passengers' being a subset of 'passengers'?

Is it in the BRB?

Says it in the 6E FAQ, first of all.

It establishes that if something affects Category A, then it affects subsets of Category A.

'Surviving passengers' is a subset of 'passengers' because of the English fething language. A 'grey jacket' is still a 'jacket' and a 'poster' is still a 'poster'.

And a Heavy Bolter is still a Bolter right?

Try again.

DeathReaper wrote:And a Heavy Bolter is still a Bolter right?

Try again.

The only reason why that doesn't work is because there are separate, distinct rules for the weapons named "Bolter" and "Heavy Bolter" in the game. Because the designers didn't want to call bolters "Aquila Pattern mk 6-7 Bolters" and do the same crap for every weapon in the game. So that's a gakky example and doesn't apply to this debate.

A more apt metaphor for what you're trying to argue would be that a master-crafted Power Sword doesn't count as a Power Sword.

The rules for vehicle damage are immediately applied.

The passengers cannot shoot in their next shooting phase.

This is IMMEDIATE. That squad is now unable to shoot in their next shooting phase.

Kiredor wrote:The rules for vehicle damage are immediately applied.

The passengers cannot shoot in their next shooting phase.

This is IMMEDIATE. That squad is now unable to shoot in their next shooting phase.

Exactly. Passengers is not checked at the time of the unit shooting. It's checked at the time of shaken / stunned vehicle and then applied to the embarked unit. It doesn't matter if they change from passengers to anything else, they already are "marked" as "cannot shoot in their next shooting phase" (not literally in the rule of course).
If 'no longer passengers' was true, which is definitely NOT, rules like Assault Vehicle would never work.

Macok wrote:

Kiredor wrote:The rules for vehicle damage are immediately applied.

The passengers cannot shoot in their next shooting phase.

This is IMMEDIATE. That squad is now unable to shoot in their next shooting phase.

Exactly. Passengers is not checked at the time of the unit shooting. It's checked at the time of shaken / stunned vehicle and then applied to the embarked unit. It doesn't matter if they change from passengers to anything else, they already are "marked" as "cannot shoot in their next shooting phase" (not literally in the rule of course).
If 'no longer passengers' was true, which is definitely NOT, rules like Assault Vehicle would never work.

So I will ask you the same question.

When do they stop being passengers of that vehicle?

imweasel wrote:

Macok wrote:

Kiredor wrote:The rules for vehicle damage are immediately applied.

The passengers cannot shoot in their next shooting phase.

This is IMMEDIATE. That squad is now unable to shoot in their next shooting phase.

Exactly. Passengers is not checked at the time of the unit shooting. It's checked at the time of shaken / stunned vehicle and then applied to the embarked unit. It doesn't matter if they change from passengers to anything else, they already are "marked" as "cannot shoot in their next shooting phase" (not literally in the rule of course).
If 'no longer passengers' was true, which is definitely NOT, rules like Assault Vehicle would never work.

So I will ask you the same question.

When do they stop being passengers of that vehicle?

Irrelevant question.
It's not an ongoing effect requiring them to continue to be passengers.
It's an immediate effect. They're forbidden from firing in their next shooting phase.

imweasel wrote:

Macok wrote:

Kiredor wrote:The rules for vehicle damage are immediately applied.

The passengers cannot shoot in their next shooting phase.

This is IMMEDIATE. That squad is now unable to shoot in their next shooting phase.

Exactly. Passengers is not checked at the time of the unit shooting. It's checked at the time of shaken / stunned vehicle and then applied to the embarked unit. It doesn't matter if they change from passengers to anything else, they already are "marked" as "cannot shoot in their next shooting phase" (not literally in the rule of course).
If 'no longer passengers' was true, which is definitely NOT, rules like Assault Vehicle would never work.

So I will ask you the same question.

When do they stop being passengers of that vehicle?

When they get out. The argument here is that at the time of crew/shaken you have a unit that is considered the "passengers" of the vehicle. When that result is applied, that unit cannot shoot in their next shooting phase. It doesn't matter whether or not they are passengers at that time. Honestly, I'm not sure which way I'm leaning. I'd rather say that the units can shoot if they get out because that's how it was before, but this is a new edition and times are a' changin'...

rigeld2 wrote:

imweasel wrote:

Macok wrote:

Kiredor wrote:The rules for vehicle damage are immediately applied.

The passengers cannot shoot in their next shooting phase.

This is IMMEDIATE. That squad is now unable to shoot in their next shooting phase.

Exactly. Passengers is not checked at the time of the unit shooting. It's checked at the time of shaken / stunned vehicle and then applied to the embarked unit. It doesn't matter if they change from passengers to anything else, they already are "marked" as "cannot shoot in their next shooting phase" (not literally in the rule of course).
If 'no longer passengers' was true, which is definitely NOT, rules like Assault Vehicle would never work.

So I will ask you the same question.

When do they stop being passengers of that vehicle?

Irrelevant question.
It's not an ongoing effect requiring them to continue to be passengers.
It's an immediate effect. They're forbidden from firing in their next shooting phase.

No, passengers are forbidden from shooting in their next shooting phase. The rule doesnt get any easier or clearer than that.

jms40k wrote:

imweasel wrote:

Macok wrote:

Kiredor wrote:The rules for vehicle damage are immediately applied.

The passengers cannot shoot in their next shooting phase.

This is IMMEDIATE. That squad is now unable to shoot in their next shooting phase.

Exactly. Passengers is not checked at the time of the unit shooting. It's checked at the time of shaken / stunned vehicle and then applied to the embarked unit. It doesn't matter if they change from passengers to anything else, they already are "marked" as "cannot shoot in their next shooting phase" (not literally in the rule of course).
If 'no longer passengers' was true, which is definitely NOT, rules like Assault Vehicle would never work.

So I will ask you the same question.

When do they stop being passengers of that vehicle?

When they get out. The argument here is that at the time of crew/shaken you have a unit that is considered the "passengers" of the vehicle. When that result is applied, that unit cannot shoot in their next shooting phase. It doesn't matter whether or not they are passengers at that time. Honestly, I'm not sure which way I'm leaning. I'd rather say that the units can shoot if they get out because that's how it was before, but this is a new edition and times are a' changin'...

If they get out willingly, by RAW they can shoot because they're not passengers.

If the vehicle is wrecked or asploded, they can't because they're explicitly referred to as surviving passengers. (pg 80)

It's a stupid little RAW idiosyncracy.

imweasel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

imweasel wrote:So I will ask you the same question.

When do they stop being passengers of that vehicle?

Irrelevant question.
It's not an ongoing effect requiring them to continue to be passengers.
It's an immediate effect. They're forbidden from firing in their next shooting phase.

No, passengers are forbidden from shooting in their next shooting phase. The rule doesnt get any easier or clearer than that.

Yes, it doesn't. They can't shoot even if they disembark. It doesn't matter that they are no longer passengers. They were at the moment the rule was executed. That is ALL there needs to be checked.

If your logic is true no rule that mentions "next" "following" etc. will ever work, do you know why? Because by some twisted logic when the next turn comes, it's no longer "next". It's current.
I bladestorm in my second turn. Bladestorm states that nn my next shooting phase I cannot shoot. There comes my third turn; shooting phase. I check and currently it's not "next shooting phase", it's "current shooting phase" so I can bladestorm / shoot no problem. See how ridiculous that logic is?