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I read somewhere that Nurgle and Tzeench had an ancient feud. Slaanesh and Khorne also.

Two questions, where is this from could i get a link ??? (is it true) i had a look and couldn't see anything.

And if this is the case why?? I would assume it would be Khorne Vs Tzeench due to the psychers and manipulation. Nurgle and slaanesh due to nurgles appearance and the lack of attention to skills (slowing of mind ).

I ask because i would really like to build my tzeench + nurgle list as plague marines and thousands sons are my favorite. (and i already own some of each)

thanks

I found this, might help.

Try browsing Lexicanum in general, it is a great source for 'canon' information.

Seems a nurgle+ tzeench CSM force would be pretty un-fluffy =(

Thanks for your help.

Nurgle represents stagnation while Tzeentch represents change. Slaanesh represents love while Khorne represents hatred.

Tzeetch represents Growth, Nurgle represents Decay
Khorne represents War, Slaanesh represents Love

Slaanesh is constantly saying "Make Love, Not War" and Khorne is like "Freaking Hippie"

In the Liber Chaotica it's explained that Tzeentch's fundamental raw emotion, the very thing he's made of, is Hope. Hope leads to Ambition. Ambition leads to Change.

Nurgle on the other hand is made out of raw Fear. Fear leads to Despair. Despair leads to Apathy. Nurgle is a 'joyful' god because his followers no longer care about anything, let it all rot and laugh about it.

Since Fear and Hope diametrically oppose each other, Nurgle and Tzeentch loathe each other more than any other being in the universe.

This is de-emphasized in the current fluff which wants to see mixed Daemon armies (sell more models!), but in the 8th edition fantasy rulebook it still mentions Nurgle and Tzeentch are the raw embodiments of Despair and Hope respectively.

Talamare wrote:Tzeetch represents Growth, Nurgle represents Decay
Khorne represents War, Slaanesh represents Love

Slaanesh is constantly saying *Unnatural like noise* "Make Love not War, yyyeeeaahhh!" and Khorne is like "Shut the Feth up, GTFO, BFTBG, SFTSK!"

Changed to be 100% accurate.

So how could i justify a Nurgle+ tzeench force?? (without black legion) .

I still find it hard to grapple with the fact Khorne hates Slaanesh more that tzeentch.

khaosspacemarines wrote:So how could i justify a Nurgle+ tzeench force?? (without black legion) .

I still find it hard to grapple with the fact Khorne hates Slaanesh more that tzeentch.

It's actually gone back and forth a few times over who are the primary rival gods. Sometimes it's Khorne vs. Slaanesh, sometimes it's Khorne vs. Tzeentch. In general, it's possible to come up with situations for any god's followers (read: not the gods themselves) to work alongside any other. For Nurgle and Tzeentch, you can focus on the growth of diseases and plagues. How they constantly change, dying and being reborn endlessly, giving way to new mutations, more virulent and resistant strains with each new generation.

The reason for their rivalries is as follows.


Nurgle and Tzeentch.

Nurgle is decay and stagnation, but it all leads to death(or eternal unlife) while Tzeeentch is the embodyment of Flux.



Khorne and Slannesh are opposites because of what they stand for too.

Khorne is, above all other things, the god of Martial Perfection and honor(and all that blood stuff)

Slannesh is the god of perfection in all things. The experience of it all, sensation. So Slannesh is trying to perfect everything, Khorne is trying to perfect one thing. And that is the crux of their fued.

I'm pretty sure a Prince/Champion of Chaos Undivided can lead followers of opposing gods.

In 3rd edition/early 4th you couldn't use two opposing gods forces in the same army, unless you were Black Legion, or in the cases where a Black Crusade was launched. This applied even if you wanted the one odd sorcerer in a Khorne army, etc. Undivided units didn't count towards this, so you could have three different marks in one army. GW got rid of this idea with 5th edition to fork in more cash, ie calling it a Daemonic incursion, thus all the gods are chummy with each other (¬¬....ignoring the feth up, what about the billion strong forces that fight each other all the time, yet they're nice enough when its only a few dozen daemons in a normal army?). Hopefully they'll bring the rules back with the new chaos codex, as they were a neat way to build an army, as were the rules that marked units should have numbers that are multiples of the god's favourite number to get a free unit champion.....or so far that in tournements you would get bonus points if you took 888pts of Khorne in a 1000pts game. =P

Talamare wrote:
Slaanesh is constantly saying "Make Love, Not War" and Khorne is like "Freaking Hippie"

Mind if I sig this? haha

Von Chogg

I think I remember reading.somewhere that they Slaanesh-Khorne Hatefest was because Khorne was outward expression (violence, rage, war) whereas Slaanesh is inward (love, pleasure, ecstacy, perfection)

There are references to it up to the 3.5 edition CSM codex. It was eliminated in the 4th edition one, since they simplified everything in it.

The Tzeentch Nurgle rivalry is because Tzeentch represents change and hope, while Nurgle represents stagnation and despair.

Slaanesh and Khorne comes from Khorne hating the decadence that Slaanesh represents, since he is the god of warriors. It's also from their attitude towards battle, with Khorne bringing mass slaughter, while the champions of Slaanesh concentrate on a single enemy to show off their skill. Khorne being the god of anger and hatred while Slaanesh is love probably doesn't help. Another interpretation that I like is that since Khorne is the god of warriors, who build up and defend civilisations, he would naturally hate Slaanesh, who was created by the destruction of an empire and represents the things that lead to the decay of society.

There is also mention of Khorne hating Tzeentch to a slightly lesser degree because he views sorcery as cowardice.

Although i now understand the reasoning behind it, i still can't see the Khorne hating Slaanesh MORE than Tzeench.

Mainly because Khorne and Slaanesh seem to have more in common. One is slaughter one is perfection of that slaughter. One is doing it for the act itself, one is doing it for the pleasure of the act. Whilst different aspects, they seem to be of the same thing. As has been said the interest of slaanesh spreads to many things martial prowess being one of them.

the deviation in values appears to me to be minimal

In the end they both like a form of combat prowess. Ultimately they are after the same thing, combat and skill at bringing death.External aspect of slaughter and the internal, the same sides of a coin.

On the other hand you have tzeench who is not about merely death dealing or combat skill, but is all about trickery, deception and magic. The things Khorne hates the most, i mean he blesses his followers against what tzeentch prides most. He actively dislikes what tzeentch does, one of his defining traits is his hatred of magic, of plotting and scheming; backstabbing.

So why does khorne hate slaanesh more than tzeench, Khorne hates everything that Tzeentch is and does on ther other hand slaanesh is only different at his base and often has similar outcomes and goals.

Actions speak louder than words, Tzeentchs practices spit in the face of Khorne, were as Slaanesh only follows an alternate path.

I think maybe when i'm thinking about the hatred,i'm thinking more along the lines of how their followers act, rather then the gods themselves.

Oh and i'm going to go ahead with my Nurgle+ tzeentch war band. so any suggestions for how they get along would be cool. ( i can't see Nurgle hating anyone =P)

khaosspacemarines wrote:Although i now understand the reasoning behind it, i still can't see the Khorne hating Slaanesh MORE than Tzeench.

Mainly because Khorne and Slaanesh seem to have more in common. One is slaughter one is perfection of that slaughter. One is doing it for the act itself, one is doing it for the pleasure of the act. Whilst different aspects, they seem to be of the same thing. As has been said the interest of slaanesh spreads to many things martial prowess being one of them.

the deviation in values appears to me to be minimal

In the end they both like a form of combat prowess. Ultimately they are after the same thing, combat and skill at bringing death.External aspect of slaughter and the internal, the same sides of a coin.

On the other hand you have tzeench who is not about merely death dealing or combat skill, but is all about trickery, deception and magic. The things Khorne hates the most, i mean he blesses his followers against what tzeentch prides most. He actively dislikes what tzeentch does, one of his defining traits is his hatred of magic, of plotting and scheming; backstabbing.

So why does khorne hate slaanesh more than tzeench, Khorne hates everything that Tzeentch is and does on ther other hand slaanesh is only different at his base and often has similar outcomes and goals.

Actions speak louder than words, Tzeentchs practices spit in the face of Khorne, were as Slaanesh only follows an alternate path.

I think maybe when i'm thinking about the hatred,i'm thinking more along the lines of how their followers act, rather then the gods themselves.

Oh and i'm going to go ahead with my Nurgle+ tzeentch war band. so any suggestions for how they get along would be cool. ( i can't see Nurgle hating anyone =P)

Khorne doesn't really care about martial prowess, he cares about mindless slaughter. A warrior who kills 10 people is to be exalted, one who kills only 1 person in the same amount of time is ignorable (or worse, even punishable if he counts himself as a true worshiper of Khorne who chose to waste his time rather than chasing after the people running away). On top of this, Khorne wants slaughter 24/7, while Slaanesh is all about going to ride bikes if its a new sensation for you.

Make no mistake though, Khorne has no love for Tzeentch either, but Tzeentch's machinations often will lead to massive conflicts where Khorne gains his power.


As for Nurgle/Tzeentch warbands...There's a couple of ideas:

1. The Thousand Sons are manipulating the Death Guard.
2. Some form of bargaining went on, and the TS Sorcerer is willing to trade a formula for a new disease to them in order for their assistance.
3. A true Ally of Convenience situation: the two warbands were forced to merge to avoid destruction by a more dangerous force.

Bargaining sounds ok, and i know this sounds weird but i kind of what my chaos war band too.... get along.

That's mainly why i picked Nurgle(after buying some tzeench), i like that they actually like each other and that their god likes them. I don't want my warband to be filled with petty infighting....

Maybe i'm on the wrong side.

If it helps i;m only going to include two squads of thousand sons. And my defiler (might) get painted up to be part of that as well.

khaosspacemarines wrote:Bargaining sounds ok, and i know this sounds weird but i kind of what my chaos war band too.... get along.

That's mainly why i picked Nurgle(after buying some tzeench), i like that they actually like each other and that their god likes them. I don't want my warband to be filled with petty infighting....

Maybe i'm on the wrong side.

If it helps i;m only going to include two squads of thousand sons. And my defiler (might) get painted up to be part of that as well.

Hrmmm... chaos warbands and petty infighting? Hah! perish the thought!

In all seriousness, with chaos, there's always someone who thinks they should be in power or thinks they are better than everyone else, it's like capitalism!-ish. If you want it then go get it, and by the gods after you kill him you will have it!

One way I can think of how a war band would get along really well is if they turned traitor from the same chapter/regiment/planet/system. And then give them a reason to stick together, like a really good reason, planet wiped out by inquisition, wrongfully discharged, political backstabbing, idiot higher ups, etc. I think that way it wouldn't really matter who was in your warband and what alleigances to whatever gods. It'll be just like a chaos undivided warband.

Also, jumping in on the Khorne vs Slaanesh/Tzeentch debate thing. Lots of people see the whole warrior vs wizard match up in Khorne and Tzeentch right? It's basically brains vs brawn, trickery vs brute strength. Both sides are pretty balanced in a way but it's more of a rivalry than enemies. I mean brains don't always out think idiots but it does happen!. BUT Khorne and slaanesh is different, whereas the god of bloodshed and the god of change have a mutual rivalry of sorts, the prince of pleasure represents something fundamentally wrong to the followers of the bloodgod.

Look at it this way: Imagine the followers of Khorne as some poor starving child, followers of Slaanesh as extremely rich fine diners. Your first group will kill what they need to survive, spend what needs to be spent and revel at their hard won victories. Now your second group will kill whatever they dam well please, eat whatever they want, do things that a normal person would find wasteful (ex. Burn money for the sake of it), and celebrate victories that they have not earned. Now isn't that worse than someone who can out smart you once in a while?

The prancing fopperies of the Prince of Pleasure are an affront to the Blood God's sense of martial pride. These rivalries have been around since the old Realms of Chaos books.

Khorne and Slaanesh are more diametrically opposed than Khorne and Tzeentch.


While Khorne hates trickery, Khorne hates indulgence more. To Slaanesh, fighting is just the means to an end: pleasure. If fighting results in a lack of pleasure, then why fight? Slaanesh despises Khorne for being very dour, serious, and simple-minded. Slaanesh is entirely about the self.

Khorne, on the other hand, view indulgence as weakness. Pleasure is inherently vain, and focuses on the self. Khorne's ideal is slaughter (and, once, martial perfection), and selflessness. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, and Khorne demands that his followers give up their lives to wage battle.

Von Chogg wrote:

Talamare wrote:
Slaanesh is constantly saying "Make Love, Not War" and Khorne is like "Freaking Hippie"

Mind if I sig this? haha

Von Chogg

Go ahead

khaosspacemarines wrote:Although i now understand the reasoning behind it, i still can't see the Khorne hating Slaanesh MORE than Tzeench.

Mainly because Khorne and Slaanesh seem to have more in common. One is slaughter one is perfection of that slaughter. One is doing it for the act itself, one is doing it for the pleasure of the act. Whilst different aspects, they seem to be of the same thing. As has been said the interest of slaanesh spreads to many things martial prowess being one of them.

the deviation in values appears to me to be minimal

In the end they both like a form of combat prowess. Ultimately they are after the same thing, combat and skill at bringing death.External aspect of slaughter and the internal, the same sides of a coin.

On the other hand you have tzeench who is not about merely death dealing or combat skill, but is all about trickery, deception and magic. The things Khorne hates the most, i mean he blesses his followers against what tzeentch prides most. He actively dislikes what tzeentch does, one of his defining traits is his hatred of magic, of plotting and scheming; backstabbing.

So why does khorne hate slaanesh more than tzeench, Khorne hates everything that Tzeentch is and does on ther other hand slaanesh is only different at his base and often has similar outcomes and goals.

Actions speak louder than words, Tzeentchs practices spit in the face of Khorne, were as Slaanesh only follows an alternate path.

I think maybe when i'm thinking about the hatred,i'm thinking more along the lines of how their followers act, rather then the gods themselves.

Oh and i'm going to go ahead with my Nurgle+ tzeentch war band. so any suggestions for how they get along would be cool. ( i can't see Nurgle hating anyone =P)

From my understanding is that Khorne hates but respects Tzeentch

Tzeentch may spend far too much time with his spells and planning, but in the end Tzeentch is strong

On the other hand Slaanesh spends too much time having fun and is pretty weak

The Chaos Gods, are always warring amongst themselves, but also often work together. Nurgle and Tzeentch especially hate each other, but it's entirely possible that they would be in the same army, fighting a common foe. Same with Slaanesh and Khorne.

Slaanesh is certainly not the god of love.

Nurgle and Slaanesh aren't on good terms either, since Nurgle stole Isha for himself and is now keeping her in his Garden.

Manchu wrote:Slaanesh is certainly not the god of love.

The Liber Chaotica says Slaanesh is made out of raw desire. Desire that can never be sated, that always desires more.

Not exactly love, though love can come from desire.

Yeah, that's more accurate. You'd have to be pretty fethed up to think of what Slaanesh offers as "love."

Anyone considering Slaanesh is probably pretty fethed up so it makes sense.