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Question 1:

A flying MC must be deployed in glide mode. At the start of it's move, it can choose to be in Glide or Swooping mode. Does the first turn deployment of glide mode indicate a restriction to have to be in glide mode on the first turn?

Question 2:

When a Flying Monstrous Creature in Swoop mode is grounded. The only result of grounding seems to be that it can then be assaulted. Has it's lost it's swoop mode?



I am pretty sure I know the answers to these, but I wanted to put it up here as it has been a contention among some of the local players.

Mahu wrote:Question 1:

A flying MC must be deployed in glide mode. At the start of it's move, it can choose to be in Glide or Swooping mode. Does the first turn deployment of glide mode indicate a restriction to have to be in glide mode on the first turn?

There is no restriction on Swooping in the first turn. Having to deploy in Glide mode really just makes a difference if you don't get first turn.

Mahu wrote:Question 2:

When a Flying Monstrous Creature in Swoop mode is grounded. The only result of grounding seems to be that it can then be assaulted. Has it's lost it's swoop mode?

Your observation seems to be right - the only changes are that it loses the Jink rule and can be assaulted. By RAW, this means that the modeel is still Swooping (so can only be shot with Snap Fire) and must still take Grounded tests for every unit that scores at least one hit.

Personally, I think it'd be easier to treat the model as Gliding after it fails a Ground test, but this is strictly a house rule.

That is what I thought, a local player was trying to make the argument that because you are deployed in Glide mode you can't change to swooping on the first turn. I couldn't find that restriction at all, but I wanted to see if people here saw something I didn't.

Mahu wrote:Question 1:

A flying MC must be deployed in glide mode. At the start of it's move, it can choose to be in Glide or Swooping mode. Does the first turn deployment of glide mode indicate a restriction to have to be in glide mode on the first turn?

You get to choose the mode at the start of your movement phase, even on first turn. The effect of the rule here is that if you are going second, your opponent has 1 turn to hit you with out needing skyfire. If you are going first, it does not have much effect (yet).

Question 2:

When a Flying Monstrous Creature in Swoop mode is grounded. The only result of grounding seems to be that it can then be assaulted. Has it's lost it's swoop mode?

It only looses Swoop for the remainder of the turn it was shoot down in, so it loses Jink and it can be assaulted. At the start of it's next turn it can either glide or swoop again, as per the last sentence under Grounded Test.

I can't say where it loses swoop though. So I assume you still need 6's to shoot at it.

it clearly says the beast comes crashing to the ground. Obviously its not swooping at that point unless your TFG trying to nitpick the wording of the book. Not someone i would want to play a game against thats for sure.

Slagmar wrote:it clearly says the beast comes crashing to the ground. Obviously its not swooping at that point unless your TFG trying to nitpick the wording of the book. Not someone i would want to play a game against thats for sure.

Quick accusation. Maybe I'd like to follow the rules in the book instead of making things up?

Unless they FAQ it, you don't lose swooping.

rigeld2 wrote:

Slagmar wrote:it clearly says the beast comes crashing to the ground. Obviously its not swooping at that point unless your TFG trying to nitpick the wording of the book. Not someone i would want to play a game against thats for sure.

Quick accusation. Maybe I'd like to follow the rules in the book instead of making things up?

Unless they FAQ it, you don't lose swooping.

RAI - they do lose it, as you can't swoop while pulling yourself out of a small crater
RAW - they don't, because the rules only imply rather than explicitly state

One of these options makes you TFG - guess which!

If i tried to tell my opponents that they needed 6s to hit my FMC after it'd been grounded, they'd laugh at me.

I am just trying to figure out what the rules say.

RAI has no place in any game system, and labeling anyone a TFG is flaming at best.

From the strict wording of the rules, a flying MC is either swooping or gliding. They never defined what "being grounded" means except that you can be assaulted. The rules simply do not say if the model has changed mode or if "being grounded" means you lose swooping.

By the way I read it, you could also ground a MC multiple times in a turn.

Please, no "it should, or was intended to work like this" arguments. I am only interested in what the rules themselves actually say.

When you are swooping, you can not be assaulted.

You only take a grounding test while swooping.

If you fail a grounding test, you can be assaulted. This means you are no longer swooping.

If you are no longer swooping, the grounding test cannot be applied again.

Mahu wrote:I am just trying to figure out what the rules say.

RAI has no place in any game system, and labeling anyone a TFG is flaming at best.

From the strict wording of the rules, a flying MC is either swooping or gliding. They never defined what "being grounded" means except that you can be assaulted. The rules simply do not say if the model has changed mode or if "being grounded" means you lose swooping.

By the way I read it, you could also ground a MC multiple times in a turn.

Please, no "it should, or was intended to work like this" arguments. I am only interested in what the rules themselves actually say.

RAI does have a place in every game system, its a quick and easy way to sort out some rules disputes and if it fails, you resort to RAW.
RAW should never be the first port of call, you should discuss with your oponent how you think a rule was intended and only failing that resort to the black and white world of RAW.

OT: RAI here is that it would indeed lose swoop, its been shot down.
Speak to your oponent and if he does not agree (this does not make him TFG, he may just disagree) go by RAW.

RAI has a place in any system intended to be fun. If you're playing the game for fun then it's perfectly reasonable to read the rules in the way they're intended to function. This is a perfect example of such an event - the rules text describes in several places what the effect is even if it fails to address all the side-effects.

If on the other hand, the game is serious business for you then feel free to rules-lawyer RAW text as much as you like - winning is most important after all, right? Even if it means using an unintended technicality to do so!

Just don't surprised when opponents are pulling your flyers out of the sky with foot-long Ork Grabba Klaws on trukks... RAW all the way!

Green is Best! wrote:When you are swooping, you can not be assaulted.

You only take a grounding test while swooping.

If you fail a grounding test, you can be assaulted. This means you are no longer swooping.

If you are no longer swooping, the grounding test cannot be applied again.

No, it simply means that if you get grounded there is an exception to being unable to assault a swooping FMC. It never says you stop swooping, you can just get assaulted in the next assault phase.

Read the rule and no where does it say that a FMC is swooping when it's grounded. It says it's grounded, can be assaulted, loses jink and can move normally in it's next turn.

Swooping rules.

A MODEL CAN NOT CHARGE OR BE CHARGED WHILE SWOOPING.

There for, a grounded FMC is not swooping.

Specific>General.



The FMC was swooping. It got shot. It failed a Grounding Test, it takes a Str9 hit with no armor or cover saves allowed and loses its Jink save if it had one. It may also be assaulted in the following assault phase.

At any time, does it say it is no longer swooping? No no no NO!

A FMC that failed its Grounded Test is still swooping, but the special rules for the Grounded test bypass the normal rule that you cannot assault a Swooping model.

MJThurston wrote:Read the rule and no where does it say that a FMC is swooping when it's grounded. It says it's grounded, can be assaulted, loses jink and can move normally in it's next turn.

Swooping rules.

A MODEL CAN NOT CHARGE OR BE CHARGED WHILE SWOOPING.

There for, a grounded FMC is not swooping.

I was swooping. Therefore units firing at me must Snap Shot.
I am now grounded.
Find the rule that stops the Snap Shot requirement.

Removing some (not all) benefits of a rule does not mean I no longer have the rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

MJThurston wrote:Read the rule and no where does it say that a FMC is swooping when it's grounded. It says it's grounded, can be assaulted, loses jink and can move normally in it's next turn.

Swooping rules.

A MODEL CAN NOT CHARGE OR BE CHARGED WHILE SWOOPING.

There for, a grounded FMC is not swooping.

I was swooping. Therefore units firing at me must Snap Shot.
I am now grounded.
Find the rule that stops the Snap Shot requirement.

Removing some (not all) benefits of a rule does not mean I no longer have the rule.

I think this is one of the cases where GW probably thought it was obvious that if you are defined as grounded then you are no longer flying around the battlefield. Common sense>the internet.

Don't want this thread to become another RAW versus RAI argument. RAI is subjective, it should always be RAW first, and if you don't like RAW modify it to what you and your opponent thinks RAI might be with consent.

It looks like grounded doesn't remove swooping, per RAW. If you and your opponent don't like that, play how you want. If you don't like it, but your opponent wants to play by the rules as they are written, then don't play him. It is that simple. I prefer to play by what the rules actually say until GW says otherwise.

Testify wrote:I think this is one of the cases where GW probably thought it was obvious that if you are defined as grounded then you are no longer flying around the battlefield. Common sense>the internet.

And an FAQ might even rule that way. RAW, however, is not that way.

I understand YMDC is all about rules lawyering and semantics, but I cannot imagine anyone actually trying to enforce this face to face.

I will until GW says otherwise.


Remember that the game is mearly an abstraction. The MC has already been hit and is falling but at the time of all the other shooting it is still airborn and hard to hit. But it can no longer jink.

Grounding absolutely takes away Swooping.

Once again.

RAW Swooping FMC can not charge and can not be charged.

If a FMC can be charged it is no longer Swooping. There is no half truth to this because Grounded doesn't say "NO LONGER SWOOPING." It doesn't need to say this.

Lets go through the rule.

A FMC has two types of movement. Swooping or Gliding. These are movements that are done during the movement phase of the FMC.

A FMC can not charge or be charged while it is swooping.

A diving FMC and a Swooping FMC can only be hit by Snap Shots.

Now the Grounded rule.
Can be assaulted = No longer Swooping.
Loses it's jinx = Can't be diving.
It can move normally in it's next movement phase.

This takes us back to the first rule. During movement it can swoop or Glide. So a Grounded FMC is what it is, Grounded. It can not swoop until it's movement phase. I don't see how this can be looked at in any other way.

Now if you wanted to argue that a FMC is gliding after it's grounded then I would say, sure.

Here is the issue. You have Rules Lawyers saying "It's doesn't say you lose swooping in black and white."

But in black and white it says swooping FMC can't be charged........

So I ask you this. If Swooping = can't be charged. What does Can be charged =. It = gliding. So is a grounded FMC = to Gliding????

On another point.

So do you think it's fair that I keep shooting your FMC with Skyfire and keep making you get grounded for a Str 9 no save wound???

Again, absolutely wrong.

Grounded is a special rule that bypasses the rule that it cannot be assaulted while swooping, it also takes away its Jink save if it had one.

It NEVER says it stops Swooping, just because it can be assaulted doesn't mean it can't be swooping. Because its Grounded, which bypasses the "can't be assaulted" rule. Its still swooping.

You are flat out wrong.

So, because the rules do not explicitly state you stop swooping (while taking away every single special rule for swooping), you are saying the FMC is no longer swooping.

Great. You win the semantics issue but are completely missing the forest for the trees on this one.

No, they don't take away every single rule. They provide an exception for one of them, take away one, and say nothing about the third(only getting hit by Snap Shots)

It's like beating your face on a wall. Go argue with someone else. Grey Templar you are totally wrong.

If Grounded is it's own entry then if you are Grounded you are not Swooping.

So you can't be Swooping while Grounded. So you proved our point perfectly. Thanks Grey Templar.

The Grounded rule says the FMC crashes to the ground. No where does it say it gets to go back to Swooping or Diving until it's movement phase. Which in it's movement phase it can Glide or Swoop.

So again. I have more than proved what Grounded means. So you can play the correct way or you can make up rules on your own.

No, Grounded is not a state of movement. Its something that happens if the model gets hit, nothing more.

Find where it says a model that gets grounded is no longer Swooping. Find it.

Mahu wrote:labeling anyone a TFG is flaming at best.

Definitely this. Folks, if you can't discuss rules interpretations without reaching immediately for insults and negative characterizations, YMDC is not the place for you. Continue doing so, and I will remove your ability to participate.

Grey Templar wrote:No, Grounded is not a state of movement. Its something that happens if the model gets hit, nothing more.

Find where it says a model that gets grounded is no longer Swooping. Find it.

Something else to consider: it would have been easier to simply say "A model that has failed a Grounded check is no longer Swooping," rather than spell out the exceptions that they did.

MJThurston wrote:I have more than proved what Grounded means. So you can play the correct way or you can make up rules on your own.

No, you haven't. You've proven that the Grounded condition removes one thing Swooping does, modifies another and makes no mention of yet another.
You have no proven that Grounded removes Swooping - which is what you're asserting.

Please prove this.