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My opponent was using his Doomscythe to shoot (with Skyfire) the doom line ability thing (pick two lines, whatever underneath take Str 10 AP1) at my Stormtalon. He blows it to pieces (duh). My question is: can you shoot stuff that is a template on the board onto a flyer? Doesn't the flyer stand not considered part of the model (unless it switch to Hover mode)?

Sounds legit. It's not a template, it's a line.

Just because the line is on the table touching your base and not touching the flyer, doesn't mean it doesn't hit your model. By that logic, no skimmer on a base can get hit by a death ray, either.

Do note, though, that the Death Ray can't be used to hit models in the sky and in the air at the same time. Your opponent must declare whether or not he's using the Skyfire special rule to target land or air before making dice rolls.

I'm pretty sure that the Death Ray (or whatever it's called) does not use the firer's ballistic skill, and is considered a weapon. Thus, it falls under the "weapons that do not use ballistic skill cannot be used against flyers" clause of Hard to Hit.

EDIT: This is wrong, see the rest of the discussion

OH SNAP

You win. Death ray isn't anti-air.

Page 81: Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42).

Since the Doomscythe has Skyfire (as mentioned in my original question), does this mean he indeed can use the Doom Ray against my flyer? (he did declare that he would be making a Skyfire shot though)

Gonna try and nip this one in the bud.

A) Basic vs. Advanced, pg 7 BRB: Codex rules take precedence over BRB rules in the case of a conflict.

Death Ray rules state "To fire the death ray, [do a bunch of stuff]." This means that the death ray supercedes the normal sequence for shooting attacks, namely in this case choosing a target and rolling to hit.

Flyers "Hard to hit" on BRB pg 81 states that "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots". Emphasis mine, that word is extremely important here.

Weapons that don't use BS to fire can't be fired as Snap Shots.BRB pg 13.

Here's the issue here.

First off, when flyers shoot they can choose to hit flyers, as they can gain the skyfire rule at the start of each shooting phase if they choose (BRB 81 again). So whether or not it can hit flyers at all is a foregone conclusion, regardless of whether you want to stick your head in the sand for the following argument, as many people in the "things can't hit flyers" camp have been posting all over YMDC.

- The death ray never fires shots at a flyer. We do not choose a target for it; instead we select an arbitrary spot on the table.

-Since we are never targeting a flyer, we never know if we would need to Snap Shot or not. The game will only "check" for this restriction in the case of crew stunned/shaken or if we evaded in the previous turn.

-By the time we have drawn the line, the weapon has already fired. We can't fire it as a snapshot, and the game can't undo the shot just because there's a flyer under the line. We've already determined what took that S10 AP1 hit and are moving on to the Wound/Penetration step of the shooting phase.

-Most importantly, neither the errata nor the Necron codex states that it can't hit flyers.

The death ray can, indisputably, hit both ground units and flyers under the same line drawn from one shot of the weapon.

Xca|iber wrote:I'm pretty sure that the Death Ray (or whatever it's called) does not use the firer's ballistic skill, and is considered a weapon. Thus, it falls under the "weapons that do not use ballistic skill cannot be used against flyers" clause of Hard to Hit.

Your argument to this?

katfude wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:I'm pretty sure that the Death Ray (or whatever it's called) does not use the firer's ballistic skill, and is considered a weapon. Thus, it falls under the "weapons that do not use ballistic skill cannot be used against flyers" clause of Hard to Hit.

Your argument to this?

Don't paraphrase the rule.

"Shots resolved AT a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots." BRB pg 80.

The death ray never fires AT any units because it never selects a target (see the codex entry for Death Ray, which clearly circumvents steps 1 and 2 of the shooting sequence). The only way to determine if I need to fire a snap shot is in steps 1 and 2 of the shooting sequence described on page 12, BRB. Once the line is drawn I have passed the point where the game decides if it's okay to fire. We can't declare a shot a snap shot after we've decided what it hits.

The same goes for powers like Blood Lance, and apparently the vibrocannon (although I shouldn't comment on that because I don't have an eldar codex to check the wording on it).

while I'm under the impression that all powers that draw a line SHOULD be considered of the same type as blast (AoE damage), RAW it is just a heavy weapon that doesn't roll to hit.

So, yea, you can hit fliers with it.

I'm sorry, you are correct. I did not have the book in front of me and listened to another person's paraphrasing.

Unless there is definitive proof that a line-based shooting attack fits the profile as a "template, blast or large blast" attack (good luck), the ray will hit a flyer.

Yeah, sorry. I was mixing the two rules. A Death Ray should be able to hit other flyers.

Even if you somehow came to the conclusion that you needed to select a target with the Death Ray, keep in mind Flyers can choose to have the skyfire rule for a given turn which would render the entire argument null and void. (BRB pg 81)

What the rules I cited mean is that he can hit ground units and flyers with the same attack, which is pretty neat. There are only a few other abilities that do that, namely beams and other line abilities like Blood Lance. Mawloc too, oddly enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Horst wrote:while I'm under the impression that all powers that draw a line SHOULD be considered of the same type as blast (AoE damage), RAW it is just a heavy weapon that doesn't roll to hit.

So, yea, you can hit fliers with it.

Well, if it was just a shooting attack that doesn't roll to hit, it wouldn't be able to select flyers. The key thing here is that while it doesn't use BS to hit, it also doesn't select a target. By circumventing both steps 1 and 2 of the shooting sequence we get around the snap shot restriction. If it was a shooting attack that hit a TARGET unit (ie, only circumvented step 2), we wouldn't be able to use it against flyers.

Ostrakon wrote:Even if you somehow came to the conclusion that you needed to select a target with the Death Ray, keep in mind Flyers can choose to have the skyfire rule for a given turn which would render the entire argument null and void. (BRB pg 81)

What the rules I cited mean is that he can hit ground units and flyers with the same attack, which is pretty neat. There are only a few other abilities that do that, namely beams and other line abilities like Blood Lance. Mawloc too, oddly enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Horst wrote:while I'm under the impression that all powers that draw a line SHOULD be considered of the same type as blast (AoE damage), RAW it is just a heavy weapon that doesn't roll to hit.

So, yea, you can hit fliers with it.

Well, if it was just a shooting attack that doesn't roll to hit, it wouldn't be able to select flyers. The key thing here is that while it doesn't use BS to hit, it also doesn't select a target. By circumventing both steps 1 and 2 of the shooting sequence we get around the snap shot restriction. If it was a shooting attack that hit a TARGET unit (ie, only circumvented step 2), we wouldn't be able to use it against flyers.

well yea, I know thats the way the rules are written and how I'll have to play em, but I still think its stupid

So, to summarise...?

A Death Ray does not shoot at a zooming flyer, it shoots at a line on the table, in which the flyer and potentially several other units occupy. Therefore, it does not need to resolve its fire as a snap shot.

Would this also be true of things such as Blood Lance, providing the initial target is not a flyer?

Nah, I think it is:

Death Ray using Skyfire can shoot death ray at a zooming flyer. The line happens to hit some dudes on the ground, those dudes are now dead.

Blood Lance doesn't use BS so can't snapshot so no hiting zooming flyers.

Erm. Technically, if you follow the logic that you're not shooting AT the flier...

...If you drop a template weapon on a GROUND target, and the template covers the flight base of a flyer, you technically did not "shoot" the template at the flyer, thus circumventing the rule preventing you from firing template weapons at the flyer (just like how the Necron RAW circumvents step 1 and 2 of the shooting phase), since you're not actually firing the template at the flyer, but another unit, but it just happens to hit the flyer's base.

Does that make sense?

For some people in YMDC if you hit something you have shot at it.
I disagree with that interpretation but it's there.

Then using that interpretation, if you hit something with the line caused by a Death Ray, you've shot at it. Therefore, you can't shoot at air units with a Death Ray since it doesn't use BS.

Umm, you can if you use Skyfire. Skyfire removes requirement to snapfire at flyers. Snapfire is the one that requires BS to use.

Enigwolf wrote:Erm. Technically, if you follow the logic that you're not shooting AT the flier...

...If you drop a template weapon on a GROUND target, and the template covers the flight base of a flyer, you technically did not "shoot" the template at the flyer, thus circumventing the rule preventing you from firing template weapons at the flyer (just like how the Necron RAW circumvents step 1 and 2 of the shooting phase), since you're not actually firing the template at the flyer, but another unit, but it just happens to hit the flyer's base.

Does that make sense?

EDIT: misinterpreted what you said. You are correct. If I've selected a ground unit as the target of a template weapon and a flyer happens to be under the template, I'm not magically disallowed from firing because A) I never targeted the flyer and B) I'm past the point where the game checks "is this shooting attack supposed to be a snap shot" either way.

Enigwolf wrote:Erm. Technically, if you follow the logic that you're not shooting AT the flier...

...If you drop a template weapon on a GROUND target, and the template covers the flight base of a flyer, you technically did not "shoot" the template at the flyer, thus circumventing the rule preventing you from firing template weapons at the flyer (just like how the Necron RAW circumvents step 1 and 2 of the shooting phase), since you're not actually firing the template at the flyer, but another unit, but it just happens to hit the flyer's base.

Does that make sense?

I still stand by this point, assuming we don't use the YMDC assumption that hitting a target means we're shooting at it (Think template weapons hitting multiple units - if I shoot unit A and it scatters onto unit B only, I've still shot at unit A and the rest of my unit shoots unit A rather than B, even though I hit B. Using that YMDC assumption, by my template landing on unit B, I've shot at unit B and therefore my unit has to shoot at unit B - invalid argument.)

rigeld2 wrote:For some people in YMDC if you hit something you have shot at it.
I disagree with that interpretation but it's there.

Some people in YMDC cling to this assertion but there's simply no basis for it in the rules themselves. Just what people purport RAW to be.

Ostrakon wrote:

Enigwolf wrote:Erm. Technically, if you follow the logic that you're not shooting AT the flier...

...If you drop a template weapon on a GROUND target, and the template covers the flight base of a flyer, you technically did not "shoot" the template at the flyer, thus circumventing the rule preventing you from firing template weapons at the flyer (just like how the Necron RAW circumvents step 1 and 2 of the shooting phase), since you're not actually firing the template at the flyer, but another unit, but it just happens to hit the flyer's base.

Does that make sense?

Incorrect, because there is a specific rule regarding Templates not being able to HIT flyers. Line-based methods of determining hits are neither Templates, Blasts, nor Large Blasts.

Also, Templates still follow part of the normal shooting sequence. You still have to select a target unit (step 1), you just replace step 2 with the template rules for determining what got hit. So you're still shooting at a unit when you use a weapon with the Template range.

I don't have my BRB on hand with me, but doesn't the rule read that you cannot fire a template weapon at flyers, and not that template weapons cannot hit flyers? If that's the case, I'm not firing the template at the flyer, but at another unit - the blast catches the flight base of the flyer, and I didn't shoot the template at the flyer.

Enigwolf wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:

Enigwolf wrote:Erm. Technically, if you follow the logic that you're not shooting AT the flier...

...If you drop a template weapon on a GROUND target, and the template covers the flight base of a flyer, you technically did not "shoot" the template at the flyer, thus circumventing the rule preventing you from firing template weapons at the flyer (just like how the Necron RAW circumvents step 1 and 2 of the shooting phase), since you're not actually firing the template at the flyer, but another unit, but it just happens to hit the flyer's base.

Does that make sense?

Incorrect, because there is a specific rule regarding Templates not being able to HIT flyers. Line-based methods of determining hits are neither Templates, Blasts, nor Large Blasts.

Also, Templates still follow part of the normal shooting sequence. You still have to select a target unit (step 1), you just replace step 2 with the template rules for determining what got hit. So you're still shooting at a unit when you use a weapon with the Template range.

I don't have my BRB on hand with me, but doesn't the rule read that you cannot fire a template weapon at flyers, and not that template weapons cannot hit flyers? If that's the case, I'm not firing the template at the flyer, but at another unit - the blast catches the flight base of the flyer, and I didn't shoot the template at the flyer.

No, you were right. I was misinterpreting what you were saying. See my edited response.

No worries, thanks! As I said, I don't have my BRB on hand with me and it's just tripping me up with the possibilities... If that were true, an Orbital Strike can hit flyers too since it doesn't target flyers - it targets a point on the battlefield IIRC.

Edit: Nevermind, read it again. Orbital Strikes count as a ranged weapon.

Enigwolf wrote:No worries, thanks! As I said, I don't have my BRB on hand with me and it's just tripping me up with the possibilities... If that were true, an Orbital Strike can hit flyers too since it doesn't target flyers - it targets a point on the battlefield IIRC.

Edit: Nevermind, read it again. Orbital Strikes count as a ranged weapon.

Doesn't it also have the Large Blast USR?

Yes it does.

I'm really interested to hear what others think about template weapons scattering onto flyers, given the Doomscythe shooting air units as precedence...

Edit: Can anyone with a BRB on-hand confirm whether it says template weapons cannot be fired at Zooming flyers, or if it says template weapons cannot hit Zooming flyers?

Enigwolf wrote:Yes it does.

I'm really interested to hear what others think about template weapons scattering onto flyers, given the Doomscythe shooting air units as precedence...

That can't happen thanks to Hard to Hit (pg 81). It specifically disallows Templates/Blasts/Large Blasts from ever hitting flyers.

So if you target the flyer (or rather try to) you fail because weapons with those USRs can't be fired as snap shots.

If you target some other arbitrary unit and the marker happens to scatter onto a flyer, it doesn't hit because of flyers' immunity to being hit by weapons with those USRs (note it's only 'weapons' with those USRs, so certain other weird things can still hit it like the Mawloc's deep strike thing).

The only reason why the doom ray (and things like blood lance and beam powers) get around this is because they don't target (and therefore get around what would have to be a retroactive enforcement of the snap shot rules) and because they're not templates, large blasts, or blasts.

Ostrakon wrote:

Enigwolf wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:

Enigwolf wrote:Erm. Technically, if you follow the logic that you're not shooting AT the flier...

...If you drop a template weapon on a GROUND target, and the template covers the flight base of a flyer, you technically did not "shoot" the template at the flyer, thus circumventing the rule preventing you from firing template weapons at the flyer (just like how the Necron RAW circumvents step 1 and 2 of the shooting phase), since you're not actually firing the template at the flyer, but another unit, but it just happens to hit the flyer's base.

Does that make sense?

Incorrect, because there is a specific rule regarding Templates not being able to HIT flyers. Line-based methods of determining hits are neither Templates, Blasts, nor Large Blasts.

Also, Templates still follow part of the normal shooting sequence. You still have to select a target unit (step 1), you just replace step 2 with the template rules for determining what got hit. So you're still shooting at a unit when you use a weapon with the Template range.

I don't have my BRB on hand with me, but doesn't the rule read that you cannot fire a template weapon at flyers, and not that template weapons cannot hit flyers? If that's the case, I'm not firing the template at the flyer, but at another unit - the blast catches the flight base of the flyer, and I didn't shoot the template at the flyer.

No, you were right. I was misinterpreting what you were saying. See my edited response.

Just to be clear, are you two saying that if a blast marker scatters onto a flyer, it can damage that flyer?

If that's what you're saying, I believe you are incorrect. The rule in the BRB says that "templates, blast and large blast weapons cannot hit (swooping FMC / zooming flyers)". I would interpret this as, you can shoot a large blast weapon at such a target, but it doesn't matter if it touches that target, as the rules say it "cannot hit".