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Between Anakin's downfall to Vader and the corruption of Horus, which tale do you think is more sad, better written, more interesting etc

George Lucas vs. Black Library

Huh...

I'm going to have to say Anakin's fall was better. Though the writing was just as bad, it was a movie and that meant the explosions seemed brighter and bigger.

The thing that gets me about the Horus tale is its not just Horus, its essentially half of the 'jedi' that have fallen from grace

Anakin's was just atrocious writing. He goes from being distraught over killing Mace, to slaughtering a bunch of innocent young children while they're asleep in their beds, all in a matter of minutes.

At least Horus's fall was subtle and gradual... Like any well-written descent into evil.

The story of the fall of Horus has been around for longer than the BL. It hails from a time when GW focused of good plots and had talented writers.

Since episodes 1 2 and 3 never happened I don't know how to answer this.

But seriously... Few things are written worse than the new SW movies.

The fall of Anny isn't very emotional. We all new it was coming and had a general idea of how it happened until you know... they screwed the SW universe up.

The fall of Horus was cool because we all new that it had happened but no one knew why, how or under what conditions.

DeffDred wrote:
The fall of Anny isn't very emotional. We all new it was coming and had a general idea of how it happened until you know... they screwed the SW universe up.

The fall of Horus was cool because we all new that it had happened but no one knew why, how or under what conditions.

I don't think this argument quite works(at least in relation to Star Wars). What did we know about Vader before Episode 1? He was Luke's father, he was a jedi, he fell to the dark side. I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

That's about the same as an outsider just glimpsing the Heresy would know. He was a powerful warrior/leader and fell to evil.

Darth Vader's fall was just very poorly written/implemented.

Anakin's fall is much better because it relates to ALL of us mere mortals. Isnt a stories ability to relate to the viewer one of the factors that makes it great?

By relate I mean the love aspect. I admit it im a wuss so I saw anakins fall as truly tragic because he did it out of love and the very powerful and often conflicting emotions brought about by said love. I can truly relate with Anakin because like him I would burn the galaxy to ash for the woman I love. As for Horus. His story is amazing but he as not only an astarte but a primarch so his way of thinking is alien to us normal humans IMHO

I don't know, Horus was afraid the universe would forget him, that it would be as if he never lived. That the Emperor, his beloved father had lied to him and would discard him. A lot of people get worried about their legacy. Horus was shown a vision devoid of himself and his Sons, where they had been betrayed. I think it's a little clumsy but plausible for an exceedingly prideful man. He's far too quick to trust Warp entities and the vision though.

I felt Anakin's fall was more poorly executed. He turns to obvious darkness out of desperation with exceeding rapidity. He doesn't even try bargaining with Windu and largely assumes no one else can help.

Of such stories I'm familiar with, I feel like Arthas (Warcraft 3) was actually done best. None of the steps along his path to darkness is particularly large. He gets more and more desperate, making more and more compromises along the way. By the time he falls, we all saw it coming, but every step felt like a reasonable one to make at the time.

For you Star Wars purists...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJlbPXZEpRE

Horus.

It didn't involve a bad (and forced) love story, or completely terrible writing, and while the BL are far off the perfect quality radar, they write better than Lucus.

PresidentOfAsia wrote:Between Anakin's downfall to Vader and the corruption of Horus, which tale do you think is more sad, better written, more interesting etc

It depends. Are we talking about Episode 3 or are we talking the original way in which Anakin turns to Darth Vader.

Lucus screwed it up big time. It just didn't fit in the original way it was supposed to happen. Anakin was supposed to leave the Jedi order first and go it alone for a while before he MEETS the Emperor and turns to the Dark Side. In the new version, not only does Anakin not leave the order first but apparently he has known the Emperor since he was a kid.

I'm going to go with the Horus Heresy on this one.

It's a toughy, I think with the added revelations of each both falls are pretty bad.

I preferred both when we knew less about them, it made their stories better in a way. You just knew that this awesome super dude who was a great guy turned into the ultimate villain but came good again.

Now it's a bit duh, really?

blood reaper wrote:Horus.

It didn't involve a bad (and forced) love story, or completely terrible writing, and while the BL are far off the perfect quality radar, they write better than Lucus.

while i dont tend to get involved in these threads, this comment isn't quite true, in a sense it was a rather sad love story of a son who adores and cares for his father only to feel abandoned (when he left him for work he wouldn't tell him about despite being his most trusted son) and betrayed (see previous brackets) at the edge of the void with the weight of the galaxy on his shoulders, and then quickly plummet into the depths of depression and heresy when betrayed by his brother, and showed the true future under the pretence of the alternate if he carried on doing what his father wanted, and he snapped, everyone has there point an this was his, so no i wouldnt say it isnt a love story, it kind of is, just if you take out the fillers such as the general marines bolters tanks explosions etc this is what i boils down to, and honestly its quite a tragic story when you remove the gory bits

I liked the 'twist' (used loosely here) that the prophesied great balancing of the force turned out to be the Dark Side re-emerging to re-address the balance, rather than the Jedi councils' idea of balance. However thats the storyline not the actual execution of Anakins fall.

Anakins steps into the dark side are as a result of human emotions and thus we relate to them (and secretly we all want to blast people with lightning lol)

Horus' descent can also be considered human - plagued by doubt, manipulated, betrayed. All things people could fear and cloud their judgement. In terms of execution, Horus' was better.

They're both actually pretty badly written.
Star Wars - if you ever get pissed off, you're definitely going to turn evil
40k - My dad doesn't understand me, I'm going to hang out smoking cigarettes with the dangerous boys.

KoganStyle wrote:I liked the 'twist' (used loosely here) that the prophesied great balancing of the force turned out to be the Dark Side re-emerging to re-address the balance, rather than the Jedi councils' idea of balance. However thats the storyline not the actual execution of Anakins fall.

The funny thing is the way that Anakin re-addressed the balance of the force. Yes, he killed all the Jedi, but don't forget, it was also him that threw Palpatine down the shaft as well. He basically re-addressed the balance of the force by killing both sides off (eventually).

EDIT: Also to note, that in the Star Wars fluff, Luke follows a different kind of code than the original Jedi code. For instance Jedi weren't allowed to get married, hence why Anakin had to marry Padme in secret. However Luke ends up marrying Mara Jade, so obviously thats not a part of the Jedi order he set-up..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Testify wrote:They're both actually pretty badly written.
Star Wars - if you ever get pissed off, you're definitely going to turn evil
40k - My dad doesn't understand me, I'm going to hang out smoking cigarettes with the dangerous boys.

What I have told you about hanging about with those Plaguebearers? They're a bad influence!!!!!

I wonder which of the two hated sand more. Tht's probably an important factor.

Yeah, because putting this question in a forum dedicated to Warhammer 40k will not make the poll biased. Not at all.

Marzillius wrote:Yeah, because putting this question in a forum dedicated to Warhammer 40k will not make the poll biased. Not at all.

It be the same way in a Star Wars forum and so on...

Anyways, the prequels are simply commercial diarrhea.

blood reaper wrote:

Marzillius wrote:Yeah, because putting this question in a forum dedicated to Warhammer 40k will not make the poll biased. Not at all.

It be the same way in a Star Wars forum and so on...

Anyways, the prequels are simply commercial diarrhea.

And Black Library isn't?

LoneLictor wrote:

blood reaper wrote:

Marzillius wrote:Yeah, because putting this question in a forum dedicated to Warhammer 40k will not make the poll biased. Not at all.

It be the same way in a Star Wars forum and so on...

Anyways, the prequels are simply commercial diarrhea.

And Black Library isn't?

You have a point their, in all respects they are both just terrible.

Both are about equaly badly written.

Hours' fall is much more dramatic and imo devastating to the balance of power. Horus went to chaos for nothing but selfish reasons and took more with him . Anakin went to the dark side for selfish reasons yes, but at the same time they were selfless. He turned to save the ones he loved from death. Hours turned because he was a bad ass XD

GreyHamster wrote:
Of such stories I'm familiar with, I feel like Arthas (Warcraft 3) was actually done best. None of the steps along his path to darkness is particularly large. He gets more and more desperate, making more and more compromises along the way. By the time he falls, we all saw it coming, but every step felt like a reasonable one to make at the time.

I agree Arthas story was the best. How he was manipulated every step of the way. From the death of his horse, betrayal of his love, Slaughter at Stratholme to Frostmourne, killing Mal'Ganis and becoming the Lich King. No longer caring that he became what he most despised.
That was a very well written story

Archonate wrote:

At least Horus's fall was subtle and gradual..

What? LOL. No it wasn't.

In Rise of Horus you had Horus showing great humility and even selflessness. When he met the Interex, he could have used his Warmaster status to just obliterate them, as they were clearly xenos. Instead, not only did he try to negotiate with them but when everything turned to gak and they were trying to kill him, he was initially willing to sacrifice his own life in order to "set things right".

Point being, from Rise of Horus to halfway through False Gods, he's shown to be a very compassionate and merciful individual who's biggest flaw is having an ego.

After one chapter in which Horus dreams about not having a fething statue built of him, he his personality makes a complete 180. This is after realizing that Erebus was trying to manipulate him and that the visions he was being shown weren't exactly the future set in stone. He turns evil anyway, for no reason at all, and within a dozen pages he's snapping bitches necks and gunning down hordes of his own people while slaughtering billions.

That's not a well-written fall, nor is it "subtle and gradual". Horus' fall was terribly written and utterly sudden.

Anakin's fall was badly written as well but at least we saw foreshadowing of the character flaws that would eventually lead to his fall from the very first movie. He was born as a slave who was worth less than nothing and loved by only one person, his mother. It was stated by Yoda in TPM that he shouldn't have been trained as a Jedi because his mind had already been warped too much by the world around him and he was carrying too much emotional baggage. In AotC we see that he'd developed an obsession with a woman which has put him at odds with the rest of his order. In addition to that he's also adopted a policitian as his surrogate father, which is a no-no, and he watches his own mother, the only person who ever loved him for eight years, DIE right in front of his eyes, which makes him even more unhinged. And then in RotS we see that he foresees that once again the most important person in his life is going to die and the only person in the entire galaxy who's willing to help him is his surrogate-father-figure who also JUST happens to be the ultimate evil in the galaxy. Simultaneously, we see the Jedi order, a group of people whom he's admired his whole life, essentially turn their backs on him and toss out their own ideals for the lulz. So in the end he's presented with an ultimatum: to choose between the one person in the galaxy who will help him save the person he loves more than anyone, or the group who won't help him, will in fact probably expel him from the order if they find out about his relationship, and are ultimately trying to kill the only man who can save his pregnant wife.

Anakin's motivations for doing what he did are muuuuch more fleshed out and sensical than Horus'.

Thank you Blaxican for expressing what I was too incompetent/lazy to say. Anakin's fall may have been badly written, but at least it made sense. Horus was like this goody goody guy who when he's told by a guy who he knows is manipulating him that there won't be a statue of him in this one courtyard in a few thousand years decides to eat puppies and kill babies.

Well I think if it was left in Graham MacNeills hands the fall may have been slower, but Dan Abnett while a wonderful writer does tend to have rapid falls from grace.Graham MacNeill's falls even when rapid are understandable to the reader.


P.S. Damn multiple authors for a single story

Lormax wrote:For you Star Wars purists...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJlbPXZEpRE

HAH! Amazing.