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So yeah - in January GW (in their infinite wisdom) decided to change the rules, but only as it applies to Nids.
I'm referring to the Venomthrope FAQ that said you weren't reduced to I1 when taking that dangerous terrain test "as the Spore Cloud is not a piece of terrain."
It didn't apply to other similar abilities at the time because of the way the 5th ed BRB was worded (it only required taking the test to drop your init).

Since the trigger for dropping to I1 has changed, that FAQ makes much more sense.
It brings up the question, however - do Sanctuary, et. al. also not drop your initiative?

Relevant rules:

BRB 22 wrote:To represent this, if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all ofthe unit's models must attack at Initiative step I, regardless of other Initiative modifiers.

C:GK 25 Sanctuary wrote:If the Psychic Test is successful, any models attempting to assault friendly units from the Grey Knights Codex within 12" of the Librarian that turn treat all terrain, including open terrain, as both difficult and dangerous.

C:SW 37 Murderous Hurricane wrote:Place a marker next to the affected unit - next turn that unit treats all terrain, even clear terrain, as both difficult and dangerous.

C:T 45 wrote:and any non-vehicle enemy model that assaults one of these units must take a dangerous terrain test to represent the toxic effect of the spore cloud.

Part of me hopes and dreams that "not a piece of terrain" would also apply to the C:GK, C:SW, and other powers - but I wanted to solicit opinions.

The GK and SW specifically says that they treat all terrain, including open/clear terrain as both difficult and dangerous.

The Tyrranid one only says that "One of these units must make a dangerous terrain test". It doesn't further state that clear terrain is treated as difficult terrain. Dangerous terrain doesn't affect your initiative, difficult does (If I Recall Correctly).

That's not my point.
The Nid FAQ says "not a piece of terrain".
The GK and SW powers do not create a piece of terrain.

The Tyranid ability just causes a dangerous terrain test. This does not imply they move through dangerous terrain. The GK and SW powers cause the affected unit/models to treat all terrain as difficult, meaning they will move through difficult terrain. That's the difference.

elrabin wrote:The Tyranid ability just causes a dangerous terrain test. This does not imply they move through dangerous terrain. The GK and SW powers cause the affected unit/models to treat all terrain as difficult, meaning they will move through difficult terrain. That's the difference.

...
I get that's a difference. That's why they weren't affected by the Nid FAQ in 5th ed.

Read. My. Post. I'll bold it this time.

That's not my point.
The Nid FAQ says "not a piece of terrain".
The GK and SW powers do not create a piece of terrain.

Please, discuss that point. Not that the Nid ability doesn't create terrain, or that it's just a dangerous test, or whatever else.
The Nid FAQ says no because it's not a piece of terrain.
Neither the GK nor SW powers create a piece of terrain - you simply treat clear terrain as difficult and dangerous.

Every terrain is a piece of terrain. The grass you are standing is actually open/clear terrain. The GK/SW powers change the piece of terrains characteristics.

I don't see how this is even a debateable thing. Tthe skills/powers are just different.

kronk wrote:Dangerous terrain doesn't affect your initiative, difficult does (If I Recall Correctly).

This was debateable in 5th. In 6th, however, it is spelled out that dangerous terrain follows all of the same rules as difficult.

As to the issue at hand, as elrabin posted, the venomethrope just causes the test, and this is reinforced by the FAQ. The GK/SW powers specifically mention it as terrain, so unless it get's changed through a FAQ (unlikely), it is treated just the same as moving through terrain of the given type.

pizzaguardian wrote:Every terrain is a piece of terrain. The grass you are standing is actually open/clear terrain. The GK/SW powers change the piece of terrains characteristics.

That's an interesting viewpoint. And that's what I was looking for people to address.

I don't see how this is even a debateable thing. Tthe skills/powers are just different.

... Sigh. I get that they're different. I'm not trying to say they're the same.
I was wondering if the reason for the No in the nid FAQ (not a piece of terrain) would also apply to other things.

How is what I was asking not clear? I'm not trying to equate what Spore Cloud and Sanctuary do. I'm trying to see if a reason for a No would apply to other similar (note similar, not equivalent) powers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

kronk wrote:Dangerous terrain doesn't affect your initiative, difficult does (If I Recall Correctly).

This was debateable in 5th.

Actually, it wasn't. Page 36 in the 5th ed. BRB explicitly says difficult or dangerous tests lowered your init.
But that's OT for the thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Maelstrom808 wrote:The GK/SW powers specifically mention it as terrain, so unless it get's changed through a FAQ (unlikely), it is treated just the same as moving through terrain of the given type.

You treat it as D&D terrain.
Is it considered "a piece of terrain"?
That is the question.

Nice thought, rigeld2, and I like where you're going. But since "clear terrain" is called out in the MH and "open terrain" is called out in Sanctuary, it is clear that all terrains are now difficult and dangerous for both of these powers, and that the whole board is, in fact, of some terrain type.

jwolf wrote:Nice thought, rigeld2, and I like where you're going. But since "clear terrain" is called out in the MH and "open terrain" is called out in Sanctuary, it is clear that all terrains are now difficult and dangerous for both of these powers, and that the whole board is, in fact, of some terrain type.

To me, "a piece of terrain" can't mean the entire board... that just doesn't make sense.
If Sanc/MH said that it created a X" bubble of D&D terrain, I'd buy it.
It doesn't. Similar to how a model without a CCW is treated as having one, but doesn't really. I'm treating terrain as D&D, but it isn't really.

I agree that clear/open terrain is a terrain type.
I'm not sure that Sanc/MH create a piece of terrain for me to move through.

rigeld2 wrote:

jwolf wrote:Nice thought, rigeld2, and I like where you're going. But since "clear terrain" is called out in the MH and "open terrain" is called out in Sanctuary, it is clear that all terrains are now difficult and dangerous for both of these powers, and that the whole board is, in fact, of some terrain type.

To me, "a piece of terrain" can't mean the entire board... that just doesn't make sense.
If Sanc/MH said that it created a X" bubble of D&D terrain, I'd buy it.
It doesn't. Similar to how a model without a CCW is treated as having one, but doesn't really. I'm treating terrain as D&D, but it isn't really.

I agree that clear/open terrain is a terrain type.
I'm not sure that Sanc/MH create a piece of terrain for me to move through.

As has been said, it doesn't create terrain, it just changes how the unit reacts to whatever terrain they are standing on. The default terrain, flat and featureless board, is considered open ground. You can throw other types of terrain out there, but you are ALWAYS standing on some sort of terrain, and Sanc/MH changes the unit so it always treats that terrain as D&D.

I understand that the entire board is clear terrain. I've said that.
But a unit being forced to treat all terrain as D&D does not, in my opinion, create "a piece of terrain". Yes - I'm already standing on terrain. Are you calling the entire board "a piece"?

It is many pieces actually.

Ok, you need to get that "piece of terrain" line from the nid faq out of your mind. It's a poor choice of words on the FAQ writer's part, and is used simply to illustrate a point. The FAQ answer does not change how the rule functioned, it just was an attempt to clarify how it functioned for people who were making a logical leap that was not there.

If it helps you, yes...the entire board is a "piece" of terrain..Open Ground, unless you and your opponent choose otherwise. On top of that "piece" of terrain, you usually place other terrain pieces - area terrain, ruins, craters, walls, buildings, etc. However, if you just played on a flat featureless board, you would be playing on one large "piece" of open ground.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Ok, you need to get that "piece of terrain" line from the nid faq out of your mind. It's a poor choice of words on the FAQ writer's part, and is used simply to illustrate a point.

That's your interpretation of RAI. For better or worse, that line is there.

The FAQ answer does not change how the rule functioned, it just was an attempt to clarify how it functioned for people who were making a logical leap that was not there.

It absolutely did. Are you kidding? In 5th (when the FAQ came out) all that was required for the init drop was taking a D&D test.

If it helps you, yes...the entire board is a "piece" of terrain..Open Ground, unless you and your opponent choose otherwise. On top of that "piece" of terrain, you usually place other terrain pieces - area terrain, ruins, craters, walls, buildings, etc. However, if you just played on a flat featureless board, you would be playing on one large "piece" of open ground.

Page 120 of the BRB implies otherwise - that only the items you place on the board are "pieces" of terrain.

rigeld2 wrote:The GK and SW powers do not create a piece of terrain.

Irrelevant. They say the unit makes a difficult terrain check. Anytime you do, your Init drops to 1 without assault grenades or some other special rule.

kronk wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The GK and SW powers do not create a piece of terrain.

Irrelevant. They say the unit makes a difficult terrain check. Anytime you do, your Init drops to 1 without assault grenades or some other special rule.

Perhaps you should read the 6th ed rules. I included them in my OP. Thanks for responding.

rigeld2 wrote:So yeah - in January GW (in their infinite wisdom) decided to change the rules, but only as it applies to Nids.
I'm referring to the Venomthrope FAQ that said you weren't reduced to I1 when taking that dangerous terrain test "as the Spore Cloud is not a piece of terrain."
It didn't apply to other similar abilities at the time because of the way the 5th ed BRB was worded (it only required taking the test to drop your init).

Not entirely on-topic but as a non-nid player, I wasn't aware of this FAQ issue. That's actually distressing since all that 5ed required was the test to be taken... 6ed is different and explicitly requires that a model move through the terrain.

Unfortunately, the fact that other powers state to treat even clear terrain as difficult and dangerous means that yes, your initiative drops to 1 if you charge while under the effect of any of the powers.

I feel the line about not creating a piece of terrain is only relevant to the venomthrope's ability, since rather than upgrading a part of terrain into something else, it simply forces you to take a dangerous terrain test.

rigeld2 wrote:That's not my point.
The Nid FAQ says "not a piece of terrain".
The GK and SW powers do not create a piece of terrain.

I know what you want but it doesn't work like that. Maybe just come out and say GK don't need it.

rigeld2 wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Ok, you need to get that "piece of terrain" line from the nid faq out of your mind. It's a poor choice of words on the FAQ writer's part, and is used simply to illustrate a point.

That's your interpretation of RAI. For better or worse, that line is there.

The FAQ answer does not change how the rule functioned, it just was an attempt to clarify how it functioned for people who were making a logical leap that was not there.

It absolutely did. Are you kidding? In 5th (when the FAQ came out) all that was required for the init drop was taking a D&D test.

For both of these, yes you are right about the test, I had forgotten that. However, it's still applicable only to the Tyranid codex, trying to apply it to another codex is "your" interpretaion of RAI.

If it helps you, yes...the entire board is a "piece" of terrain..Open Ground, unless you and your opponent choose otherwise. On top of that "piece" of terrain, you usually place other terrain pieces - area terrain, ruins, craters, walls, buildings, etc. However, if you just played on a flat featureless board, you would be playing on one large "piece" of open ground.

Page 120 of the BRB implies otherwise - that only the items you place on the board are "pieces" of terrain.

Actually, I take back part of what I said. Based on a loophole with this line under Open Ground:

BRB p90 "Open Ground wrote: No additional rules are needed and, unless specified, special rules and abilities that affect terrain do not affect open ground.

Sanc and MH specify "clear terrain" and "open terrain" which RAI is supposed to refer to the same thing as open ground, but RAW, neither exist in 6th. Now a simple FAQ fix would change that but as it stands you could rules lawyer it, but it'd be pretty far out there when the intent is clear.

The reason I'm bringing up the Venomthrope FAQ is because it ties the drop to initiative to moving through a piece of terrain.

Page 120 of the BRB says that the pieces of terrain are placed before the game.

Nothing in Sanc/MH "creates" a piece of terrain.

Nice to see a staunch RAW advocate swinging over to the RAI way of life.

Dozer Blades wrote:Nice to see a staunch RAW advocate swinging over to the RAI way of life.

Addressing me?

Where am I using RAI anywhere? The FAQ is rules and ties the initiative drop to moving through a piece of terrain.

The reason it's not limited to just the Venomthrope is because of the wording. If they had left it at "No." this wouldn't be an issue.
But because they put "as the <ability> is not a piece of terrain." that allows the same standard to be applied to other abilities.

So it seems that this is an oversight GW passed over in their change to cover an initiative...interesting find.

The only thing I have to say is "unless otherwise specified", do the SW and GK powers necessarily specify otherwise?

SCvodimier wrote:So it seems that this is an oversight GW passed over in their change to cover an initiative...interesting find.

The only thing I have to say is "unless otherwise specified", do the SW and GK powers necessarily specify otherwise?

I've posted the relevant parts of all the rules in the OP.

Yes, and that is what I am wondering. Are the sentences in the two powers counting as "specifying otherwise"

The Tyranid power only trigers a DANGEROUS TERAIN TEST it does NOT CREAT DANGEROUS TERAIN and thus does NOT lower your Int

The other powers CREAT DIFICULT TERAIN by FORCING a unit to roll for Dificult terain. Since you are posibly slowed in your movement or charge range your INT is also lowered.

One CREATED TERAIN out of Open Terain

the other

Induces and Dangerous Terain check out of Nothing.

rigeld2 wrote:

Dozer Blades wrote:Nice to see a staunch RAW advocate swinging over to the RAI way of life.

Addressing me?

Where am I using RAI anywhere? The FAQ is rules and ties the initiative drop to moving through a piece of terrain.

The reason it's not limited to just the Venomthrope is because of the wording. If they had left it at "No." this wouldn't be an issue.
But because they put "as the <ability> is not a piece of terrain." that allows the same standard to be applied to other abilities.

The thing is if, they change it to say Open Ground instead of Clear or Open Terrain, it works just fine and your init will get reduced as everywhere that is not defined as a specific type of terrain is Open Ground.

Dooley wrote:The Tyranid power only trigers a DANGEROUS TERAIN TEST it does NOT CREAT DANGEROUS TERAIN and thus does NOT lower your Int

Correct.

The other powers CREAT DIFICULT TERAIN by FORCING a unit to roll for Dificult terain. Since you are posibly slowed in your movement or charge range your INT is also lowered.

Citation please. The other powers have the unit treat all terrain, including open/clear, as D&D. This is not the same as creating terrain.
Example: A model without a CCW does not have one created for him.
And remember, 6th has new rules for dropping your Init. Instead of rolling for terrain, simply moving through terrain does it now.
And the Venomthrope FAQ implies that it must be a piece of terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Maelstrom808 wrote:The thing is if, they change it to say Open Ground instead of Clear or Open Terrain, it works just fine and your init will get reduced as everywhere that is not defined as a specific type of terrain is Open Ground.

It still isn't a piece of terrain, as defined by page 120. Unless you place a piece of clear/open terrain.