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This is a dumb question, but I can't find a page reference for this either way.

If a vehicle is called upon to make a Leadership check, what happens? Note that it is a leadership check and not a morale check, so the rule on page 76 does not apply (at least, as far as I read). I've checked all the obvious places (Leadership, Vehicle Rules) and come up with nothing.

Thanks.

I can't seem to find anything about this, either. Is there an ability that can force a LD check on vehicles?

elrabin wrote:I can't seem to find anything about this, either. Is there an ability that can force a LD check on vehicles?

Primaris Psyker's night shielding forces an LD check to shoot at him or his unit. Vehicles are said to be Ld10 for This Test.
Blood Angels librarian dreadnought takes psychic tests against Ld10.

I think that if the effect can affect a vehicle, it's pretty safe to use Ld10.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

elrabin wrote:I can't seem to find anything about this, either. Is there an ability that can force a LD check on vehicles?

Primaris Psyker's night shielding forces an LD check to shoot at him or his unit. Vehicles are said to be Ld10 for This Test.
Blood Angels librarian dreadnought takes psychic tests against Ld10.

I think that if the effect can affect a vehicle, it's pretty safe to use Ld10.

-Matt

Is that in the power description or some other page? If it's on another page, please give me a page number. I'll be able to check when I get home.

Some older powers don't state in their description, hence the question.

This question still seems to be unresolved. Also, I can't find the night shielding power - it doesn't seem to be in the back of the BRB. Where is it?

Vehicles does not have a leadership value.
If a vehicle is subject to an effect or attack that is resolved against leadership and the specific effect/attack does -not- specify that for the purpouse if this effect you treat vehicles to have this or that amount of leadership -the effect cannot be resolved-.
This is because there is no leadership value, you only resolve said effect as if the vehicle had the specified Ld, it doesn't acctually have it.

I get that vehicles have no leadership. I get that some powers specify. This is probably just an oversight, but what happens when the effect cannot be resolved? Nothing?

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but if I want to be sure how these powers function, saying that, "Some guy on the internet told me so" isn't going to fly, especially in a tournament.

These rules would be clearer if GW just said non-vehicle targets or made all units immune to tests for stats they do not have.

Can you explain why you need to know? Specifically?

Shackle Soul, the Blood Angels power is one example. There are others, too, but I'm away from books so I'll have to paraphrase.

These powers target 'units' or 'models' and in this case, requires the unit to make a Leadership test before it can move/shoot/assault. They explicitly pass Morale tests, but not Leadership.

If it has no effect, that's fine, I would just like to be able to cite a specific rule to prove it. I think it gets wrapped up in the permissive rule set concept, but if I can have a line to quote from the BRB that's better.

To be honest, I think they should have FAQ'd all the old psychic powers anyways.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

elrabin wrote:I can't seem to find anything about this, either. Is there an ability that can force a LD check on vehicles?

Primaris Psyker's night shielding forces an LD check to shoot at him or his unit. Vehicles are said to be Ld10 for This Test.
Blood Angels librarian dreadnought takes psychic tests against Ld10.

I think that if the effect can affect a vehicle, it's pretty safe to use Ld10.

-Matt

This isn't a primaris power in the new BTB, or the psyker cards. Is this from a specific codex? $5 says it states non-vehicle unit.

Ricter wrote:Shackle Soul, the Blood Angels power is one example. There are others, too, but I'm away from books so I'll have to paraphrase.

These powers target 'units' or 'models' and in this case, requires the unit to make a Leadership test before it can move/shoot/assault. They explicitly pass Morale tests, but not Leadership.

If it has no effect, that's fine, I would just like to be able to cite a specific rule to prove it. I think it gets wrapped up in the permissive rule set concept, but if I can have a line to quote from the BRB that's better.

To be honest, I think they should have FAQ'd all the old psychic powers anyways.

you really have 2 choices:

1) You target a vehicle with Shackle soul, and now the game breaks and can not be completed because you are requiring a LD roll on a unit that does not have a LD value, so it can neither pass, nor fail this, since it can not roll.

2) You target a vehicle with Shackle soul, and now we check to see if the vehicle has a LD to test on. find out it does not and the power has no effect, and the game continues as normal.


So ultimately we have one interpretation in which the rules do not work at all and then we have another interpretation that works just fine. As you can't play with the former why is it worth even arguing about?

You just lost $5, codex: imperial guard, pg 33, primaris psyker. Nightshroud: /.../ must pass a leadership test or forego their shooting phase (vehicles counts as Ld 10 for the purpose s of the Nightshroud) /.../

And you must remember that 40k is a permissive ruleset. But the really basic thing here is that you cannot test against a stat that does not exist, som atttacks specify as 'models hit must take a toughness test or be removed from the table' and similar things. if a model does not have a toughness value it cannot be effected by this. Just because it doesn't say expressively that something CANNOT be done does not mean that it can.

Damn. Ok. I'll teleport it to you...

And the answer was in the description of the power all along, huh? Reading comprehension fail...

Do vehicles have souls?
No?
Then soul shackle fails instantly. Fairly logical imo. What does soul shackle do anyway?

*deep movie trailer voice* He thought he was right;.. He was Wrong. And now.. He must Pay the Price.

STC_LogisEngine wrote:
*deep movie trailer voice* He thought he was right;.. He was Wrong. And now.. He must Pay the Price.

Did anyone else read that in movie guy voice?

DeathReaper wrote:you really have 2 choices:

1) You target a vehicle with Shackle soul, and now the game breaks and can not be completed because you are requiring a LD roll on a unit that does not have a LD value, so it can neither pass, nor fail this, since it can not roll.

2) You target a vehicle with Shackle soul, and now we check to see if the vehicle has a LD to test on. find out it does not and the power has no effect, and the game continues as normal.


So ultimately we have one interpretation in which the rules do not work at all and then we have another interpretation that works just fine. As you can't play with the former why is it worth even arguing about?

I'm not 'arguing'. What I've been asking for is a rules citation. I realized that was the solution just fine, I was making sure I hadn't missed anything. So far you've been rude and managed to not actually answer the question asked. I understand if don't see any value in this discussion - but then simply don't reply.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Damn. Ok. I'll teleport it to you...

And the answer was in the description of the power all along, huh? Reading comprehension fail...

If you're referring to me, the power in question does not specify non-vehicle, so no, it is not a reading comprehension fail on my part.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Do vehicles have souls?
No?
Then soul shackle fails instantly. Fairly logical imo. What does soul shackle do anyway?

Are you really bringing meta-physical discussion in to answer a rules question? I don't think I've seen that before, I'll admit.

STC_LogisEngine wrote:You just lost $5, codex: imperial guard, pg 33, primaris psyker. Nightshroud: /.../ must pass a leadership test or forego their shooting phase (vehicles counts as Ld 10 for the purpose s of the Nightshroud) /.../

And you must remember that 40k is a permissive ruleset. But the really basic thing here is that you cannot test against a stat that does not exist, som atttacks specify as 'models hit must take a toughness test or be removed from the table' and similar things. if a model does not have a toughness value it cannot be effected by this. Just because it doesn't say expressively that something CANNOT be done does not mean that it can.

Thank you for the helpful reply. I figured as much, but I was hoping there was a specific rule somewhere that disallowed it, stating for example that if a model didn't have the appropriate stat, the test is automatically passed or something.

1) Argue/Debate it is the same thing.

2) how was I being rude? I was simply stating that in one case the rules work just fine, and the other breaks the game and it grinds to a screeching halt.

3) Basically the permissive ruleset says you can not take a test on a stat you do not possess, as there are no instructions to handle this situation.