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Per the rules on page 23 the Initiative step is broken down into sections , The start of the step - "Pile in", and the 2nd part - "Attacking" with a definition of who can fight in between. It's also apparent because GW does not differentiate in the "charging through difficult terrain rules " on page 22, that a model attacks at intiative step 1. "Warriors who charge through difficult terrain... and must advance more slowly ..... All of the units models must attack at intiative step 1. It does not specifically say they pile in at step 1 but the rules don't have to because the Attacking and pile ins are bundled under the same definition on page 23 "Start of the intiative step." It is my belief that attack and pile in are interchangeable. They were intended to happen at the same time. Otherwise GK halberds would not make much sense if you assaulted and had 1 model engaged , When initiative step 6 is reached, only 1 model gets to attack. Then at step 4 the rest of the models piled in having already struck. I understand its vague but because but per history of the game I will play intiative step = pile in and attack, until more clarification is given.

fixxxer76 wrote:Per the rules on page 23 the Initiative step is broken down into sections , The start of the step - "Pile in", and the 2nd part - "Attacking" with a definition of who can fight in between.
It's also apparent because GW does not differentiate in the "charging through difficult terrain rules " on page 22, that a model attacks at intiative step 1. "Warriors who charge through difficult terrain... and must advance more slowly ..... All of the units models must attack at intiative step 1.
It does not specifically say they pile in at step 1 but the rules don't have to because the Attacking and pile ins are bundled under the same definition on page 23 "Start of the intiative step." It is my belief that attack and pile in are interchangeable.
They were intended to happen at the same time. Otherwise GK halberds would not make much sense if you assaulted and had 1 model engaged , When initiative step 6 is reached, only 1 model gets to attack. Then at step 4 the rest of the models piled in having already struck. I understand its vague but because but per history of the game I will play intiative step = pile in and attack, until more clarification is given.

Aggh, wall of text.

So you're saying that if a unit swings at I6, they pile in at I6? You are correct, as far as I know.

Initiative step is pile in an attack.

5e, everyone piles in 6" then attack via initiative, damage done to unit

6e, pile in 3" on your initiative, then attack, damage is done b2b to models and then proximity

These are all direct quotes from the rulebook, copy and paste.

any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't alreadyinbasecontactwithanenemymodel,mustmakeaPile In move
(You pile in at your initiative step)

A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
• During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models. etc...
(you check for engagement at your initiative step

Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached,
(You attack at your initiative step)

So,the rules say that you pile in, check engagement, and attack, all on your initiative step. The *only* way to follow all of these rules, is if the PFist sgt has an initiative step of 1

Of course the PF has a step of one.

It seems that it is not always the case that a units pile in move will happen at the same time as their attack, take the following two scenarios:

1. Banshees modeled with power axes on the charge - at Init step 10, your banshees pile in as they have Init 10. Their axes however are unwieldy, and so their attacks won't occur until Init step 1;
2. A marine squad with pwr weap serg assaults a venomthrope, but the serg doesn't make base contact on the charge. At Init step 4, he piles in, but is then reduced to Init 1 - so can't attack until Init step 1 after the venomthrope.

Are these two examples correct? or am I just reading it wrong.

slice'n'dice wrote:1. Banshees modeled with power axes on the charge - at Init step 10, your banshees pile in as they have Init 10. Their axes however are unwieldy, and so their attacks won't occur until Init step 1

I don't think so in this case. my basis is because of how set initiatives are done with regard to Whip coils and lash whips.
"As 'a set modifier' the Whip Coil effect is applied after all other modifiers. If the model is affected by another set value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start of each subfight phase. So i think you would roll to determine if their masks made them 10s or if the axes made them 1s. Then you would move them when only appropriate

2. A marine squad with pwr weap serg assaults a venomthrope, but the serg doesn't make base contact on the charge. At Init step 4, he piles in, but is then reduced to Init 1 - so can't attack until Init step 1 after the venomthrope.

... Dang! nice one. I guess you have the idea right, so I don't know.

Does anyone have a copy of codex nids or crons to check out the wording, because we may have a real game breaker with Whip Coils and Lash Whips?

ie.
Model piles in at I5 and is immediately reduced to I1 so can't attack.
At I4 Warrior/Wraith is killed by a model that piled in but didn't make B2B, removing the initiative penalty.
Model originally at I5 can't attack as it's now missed its initiative step.

Yup, for Whip Coils that is RAW. IIRC Lash Whips changed I to 1 for duration of the assault so those still work.

And to add some fun things:
Sergeant piles in at I4 to Wraith that doesn't have Whip coils and kills it.
At I2, Wraith with Whip Coils piles, making the model I1.
At I1, Sergeant gets another pile in and attack.

Looks like all assault rules regarding Initiative Steps are just plain broken as far as RAW is concerned.

You always pile in at you models initiative, NOT when he strikes blows.

Rulebook pg. 23: “At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative
is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move.”

Having an Unwieldy weapon like a power fist or a power axe does not make you Pile In at initiative step 1, because it only states that you strike blows at initiative step 1.


Here’s how Unwieldy weapons works:

Rulebook pg. 32: “Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule”

Here is an example:

Rulebook states that models cannot declare a charge in their subsequent Assault phase is they have disembarked from a vehicle. However, Assault Vehicle Special Rule states that models can charge on the turn they disembarked.
Therefore: models CAN assault after disembarking from a vehicle that has the Assault Vehicle Special rule.

Another example:

Rulebook states that models gain a cover save when they are in area terrain. However, Ignore Cover Special Rule states that Cover saves cannot be taken against wounds caused by weapons with the
Ignores Cover special rule.
Therefore: models do NOT gain a cover save if you are using a weapon that has Ignore Cover Special Rule


Now, Unwieldy is a Special Rule.

This Special Rule changes how the assault phase works.


Rulebook states on pg. 22 that a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat. However, Unwieldy Special Rule states that a model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1.
Therefore: models initiative does NOT determine when he attacks in close combat when he is using a weapon that has Unwieldy Special Rule.


The assault rules work just fine when you take this into consideration. Normally you pile in at the initiative step equal to your models initiative and strike blows at that same initiative step.

But when using Unwieldy weapon you still pile in at the initiative step equal to your models initiative, but you strike blows at initiative step 1, because Unwieldy only changes when you strike blows, it does not modify your initiative.


I hope this makes sense.

Great arguments for both ways. Seems like there are situations that it breaks no matter how you play it. I guess I'm just going to have to decide before each game with my opponent untill its FAQ'd , if it even does.

Polecat wrote:You always pile in at you models initiative, NOT when he strikes blows.
<Stuff>
I hope this makes sense.

Did you read the thread?

Check coredump's post again.

it does not make sense, because P.22 and P.23 equate a models initiative with when the model makes its attacks.>

Polecat - I suggest you read the thread, including the rule quotes given which show your entire argument to be incorrect.

DeathReaper wrote:

Polecat wrote:You always pile in at you models initiative, NOT when he strikes blows.
<Stuff>
I hope this makes sense.

Did you read the thread?

Check coredump's post again.

it does not make sense, because P.22 and P.23 equate a models initiative with when the model makes its attacks.>

Yes I did read the thread, and I think that those arguments are incorrect.

My whole point was, that when dealing with special rules like Unwieldy, you do not use the rules on P.22 and P.23.

You use a modified version of them, because special rules break or bend the main rules, as it is stated on P.32.


Normally in this case your initiative step would be your initiative. But Unwieldy breaks this rule and your initiative step becomes 1.

However you must follow the rest of the rules and still make pile in moves at initiative step equal to your initiative. Unwieldy does not break this rule because piling in and striking blows has nothing to do with eachother.

Let me sum up.

"Start of Initiative Step Pile In
At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move." P.23

This tells us that any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step gets to pile in.

P.22 "a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat."

So a models Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat, and any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step must make a Pile In move.

The rules equate a models initiative to being when he attacks in combat, and when he makes a pile in move.

For a Power fist this is I1.

So a Power Fist will pile in, and attack at I1.

A Halberd wielding GK paladin will attack, and pile in at I6

Unless you have rules references to override this, please retract your statements.

As above.

Please follow the tenets of this forum, and provide rules quotes that override the above.

All I can say is that I think this is a matter of differend way of thinking of the rules as a whole.

specifically this part:

DeathReaper wrote:
P.22 "a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat."

So a models Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat, and any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step must make a Pile In move.

The rules equate a models initiative to being when he attacks in combat, and when he makes a pile in move.

It does indeed work this way when you are using normal weapons without any special rules.

However, that part of the rules was not meant to include any special rules. You are not supposed to apply anything from special rules when trying to figure out how main rules work.

The way I see it is that there are "main rules" and then there are "special rules" that break the main rules. This is stated on P.32.

That is why I think that "The *only* way to follow all of these rules, is if the PFist sgt has an initiative step of 1" like Coredump said is incorrect. You are not supposed to use power fist with these rules, because Unwieldy is a special rule.

Yea, P. 32 just informs us that models may have special rules, and a models attacks can gain special rules because of a weapon.

P.22 and 23 equate a models initiative to when he makes his attacks.

The Special rules gained because of a weapon have to be take into account as they are now a part of that models profile.

I think I'm more comfortable playing it the way I interpreted it. Especially since your way seems to give techmarines 2 pile in moves. One at his own initiative and another at servo harness initiative 1.

But I'm not going to walk away from a game if my opponent insists your way either. It's not that big of a deal anyway.

I would like to point out with the Servo-arm/-harness, the model itself is not making the attack, the servo-arm(s) are so there would be no second pile-in.

Polecat wrote:I think I'm more comfortable playing it the way I interpreted it.

With your way Grey Knights with Halberds would strike at I6 and pile in at I4.

So GK's with Halberds that are not in base contact on the initial assault move can not attack in the first round, according to your interpretation...

I've said it in other threads on this exact same topic and I'll say it again:

You cannot construct a definitive path on how to play the fight sub-phase via the RAW because the text for that section is clearly a frankenstein of the new rules concepts mashed together with rules text converted from the last edition of the game and the product is something that cannot be definitively deciphered, so trying to is meaningless IMHO.

The ONLY way to proceed is for people to take a step back and look at the entire point of having models pile-in at every initiative step. Why would the rules include this mechanic instead of just having everybody pile-in at once at the beginning and swing at their Initiative step as they did in 5th edition? The only plausible answer IMHO to include this mechanic is to get models into base combat at the same Initiative step they are going to make their attacks.

Because the rules now force you to pull models from base contact first, they clearly wanted models swinging at later Initiative steps to be able to still pile-into base contact and get their attacks. There is absolutely NO indication that this is supposed to be some sort of crazy puzzle so that you have to move your I4 guys in at I4, but then don't get to swing until I1 because they have an unwieldy weapon and therefore you get to try to pull casualties out to deny those models an attack.

Because if the whole point of this rigamarole was to be able to deny I1 strikers their chance to attack they could have just as easily done that with a single pile-in move at the start of combat! The only way it all makes sense is if you're supposed to be moving the models that are going to be attacking at the Initiative step that they are actually attacking at!

Please be reminded that there are four very distinctly defined steps to the "Fight Sub-phase" portion... If you guys look at everything in step 2. Fight Close Combat as being applied to everything at that Initiative step, as written, it's pretty straight forward.


pg. 43, Unwieldy

"A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1, unless it is a Monstrouc Creature or a Walker."


pg. 20, Fight Sub-phase

1. Choose combat
2. Fight Close Combat
3. Determine Assault Results
4. Repeat Fight Sub-phase or Finish Assault Phase


pg 22, Fight Sub-phase: 2. Fight Close Combat - Initiative Steps

"...To represent this, a models's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat. Work your way through the Inititative values of the models engaged in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest. This means that each combat will have ten Inititaitve steps, starting at Initiative 10... ... Remember that models that charged through difficult terrain fight at Inititative step 1"


pg 23, Fight Sub-phase: 2. Fight Close Combat - Start of Inititative Step Pile In

"At the start of each Initiative step, any model whos Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact witht he enemy model, must make a Pile In move. ..."


pg 23, Fight Sub-phase: 2. Fight Close Combat - Who Can Figh, (italics text)

"For example, Space Marine Tactical Squad Adrax consists of Sergeant Adrax and 4 Space Marines (Initiative 4). Sergeant Adrax has a power fist (the Unwieldy special rule of which causes him to attack at Initiative step 1)..."

+ + +

- Page 20 gives us an order for events in the FIght Sub-phase. There are 4 clearly defined steps.
- As we can see by GW's example, since Sergent Adrax uses a Power fist, he attacks at a modified Init 1. This is due to unwieldy.
- Piling In / Who can fight, throwing attacks, rolling to hit, rolling to wound.. etc.. is all a component of step "Fight Sub-phase: 2. Fight Close Combat"
- Since a model makes Pile-in and rolls to hit in the same step Fight Sub-phase: 2. Fight Close Combat, the model is Init 1 and piles in at Init 1 and rolls to hit at I1... etc.

Cheers,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

However you must follow the rest of the rules and still make pile in moves at initiative step equal to your initiative. Unwieldy does not break this rule because piling in and striking blows has nothing to do with eachother.

There are only 4 steps of the Fight Sub-phase.

Step Fight Close Combat is when the mechanic of Pile In and throw dice to hit / wound, etc occur.

Happyjew wrote:I would like to point out with the Servo-arm/-harness, the model itself is not making the attack, the servo-arm(s) are so there would be no second pile-in.

Disagree completely.

Regardless of everything people have said, I think I found more proof that you pile in when you make your attacks.

Hammer of Wrath gives you a free attack at initiative 10, however does NOT allow you to make an additional pile in move at that time. If you piled in at your listed Initiative value, that would not need to be added.

@imweasel, you are correct. I mis-remembered the rules for servo-arms and harnesses. They do indeed give the model an additional attack.

HoW specifically states you don't get to pile in? I will have to check my brb when I get home....

imweasel wrote:HoW specifically states you don't get to pile in? I will have to check my brb when I get home....

Yes. Page 37 specifically states that when you HoW do not get the pile in.

Simple enough. Thanks!