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i always try to field as many berzerkers as possible to compliment my deamon prince in close combat. but when i ask my opponents who do you fear more plagues or berzerkers? they 8/10 of the time say plague marines. its an obvious difference of one squad being more attacking and the other squad being more tough but im sure if you were to pit 10 bezerkers vs 10 plagues in a 100 rounds or cc the berzerkers would win. why do you think opponents fear plagues more? and should i start fielding more plagues?

Well, if you start doing ally shenanigans with Epidemius, plague marines become a lot scarier than they are now. Otherwise it really comes down to what your opponent's army is designed to deal with.

Plague marines die way less than berserkers.

T5, defensive grenades 3+ Armor Save and FNP is really nice.

T4 3+ Armor Save and that is about it for the berserkers.

Plague marines are much harder to kill than berzerkers, also berzerkers carry a stigma of being used by kids, thus are feared less as they generally don't think, they just run and assault as fast as possible.

DeathReaper wrote:
T4 3+ Armor Save and that is about it for the berserkers.

Zerkers have offense
3 attacks base
WS5
Str5 on the charge

PM have staying power but zerkers kill things.
With the nerf to assault, PM are probably better

Bezerkers took a bit of a hit with this edition. They no longer get +1 initiative from Furious Charge, and also can no longer sit in their rhinos for a turn to assault from safety.
While plague marines on the surface got a slight nerf (FnP only a 5+) realistically, it's also a buff as it can be used against anything except S10 weapons. Not only that, but it's kinda cool being the only unit who can take 2 special weapons without needing at least a unit of 10. Cheaper to build a melta spam

Bezerkers aren't BAD, and can still be scary if used well, but most people just see them as 'less scary than before' whereas plague marines are about as scary as they always were.

That being said, why not try taking both? Let plague marines sit on objectives, and use bezerkers as either a counter assault unit, or rush em forward to make it even harder for the opponent to get stuck into the plague marines

10 Zerkers vs 10 Plague Marines in combat.

For the sake of the argument, lets assume no shooting happens before the initial round when the Bezerkers charge. Zerkers have a PP and a PF in the unit. PMs have 2 Plasma guns and a PF.

9 Bolt Pistols and a PP.

One Plague Marine dies to the shooting(rounding up from .8148)

Plague Marine Overwatch with 2 Plasma Guns and 8 bolters. Kills one Bezerker.

8 bezerkers swing first with 3 attacks each(blight grenades)

2 plague marines die(rounding up from 1.77778)

6 PMs swing back. 1 zerker dies.

2 PFs at the same time. Zerker causes .74 wounds, plague marine causes .83(because the PMs get FnP against the zerker's PF)


PMs lose combat by one this round.

Second round.

6 Bezerkers swing first with 2 attacks each. They cause .56 unsaved wounds. Generously, we assume they actually cause this wound.

5 PMs swing. they kill one zerker.

PFs swing again and each kill another marine.

Its a tie, but only because we rounded .56 up to 1. Its in favor of the PMs from here on out.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, if you start doing ally shenanigans with Epidemius, plague marines become a lot scarier than they are now. Otherwise it really comes down to what your opponent's army is designed to deal with.

Really? im not aware of this advantage of pairing them with Epidemius. what are the special rules it brings?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:10 Zerkers vs 10 Plague Marines in combat.



Its a tie, but only because we rounded .56 up to 1. Its in favor of the PMs from here on out.

Ok so i guess we could say it would be better to take the bezerkers due to them being a couple of points cheaper per model. thats only if we were to also to ignore the other advantage plagues bring , the bolter gun rather than just a pistol.

Epidemius has this special rule called Tally. You keep track of how many models(or is it wounds?) that Nurgle models kill. Depending on how many, it gives ever increasing bonuses to Nurgle units.

One of the things is 3+ FnP, the highest one is ignore armor saves on all Nurgle attacks(ranged and melee IIRC)

Poison might be one of the things.

I personally don't find plague marines scarier than berzerkers, just more irritating due to their high durability. Berzerkers are more of a worry, but maybe that's just me.

Grey Templar wrote:Epidemius has this special rule called Tally. You keep track of how many models(or is it wounds?) that Nurgle models kill. Depending on how many, it gives ever increasing bonuses to Nurgle units.

One of the things is 3+ FnP, the highest one is ignore armor saves on all Nurgle attacks(ranged and melee IIRC)

Poison might be one of the things.

Yeah the big three that you get are Noxious Touch (CC attacks become Poisoned +2), FNP on a +3, and all attacks (ranged and CC) ignore armor. It's based on models and are cumulative.

Grey Templar wrote:10 Zerkers vs 10 Plague Marines in combat.

For the sake of the argument, lets assume no shooting happens before the initial round when the Bezerkers charge. Zerkers have a PP and a PF in the unit. PMs have 2 Plasma guns and a PF.

9 Bolt Pistols and a PP.

One Plague Marine dies to the shooting(rounding up from .8148)

Plague Marine Overwatch with 2 Plasma Guns and 8 bolters. Kills one Bezerker.

8 bezerkers swing first with 3 attacks each(blight grenades)

2 plague marines die(rounding up from 1.77778)

6 PMs swing back. 1 zerker dies.

2 PFs at the same time. Zerker causes .74 wounds, plague marine causes .83(because the PMs get FnP against the zerker's PF)


PMs lose combat by one this round.

Second round.

6 Bezerkers swing first with 2 attacks each. They cause .56 unsaved wounds. Generously, we assume they actually cause this wound.

5 PMs swing. they kill one zerker.

PFs swing again and each kill another marine.

Its a tie, but only because we rounded .56 up to 1. Its in favor of the PMs from here on out.

This is incorrect, berserkers would have 3 attacks each in the second round of combat. Also, the berserker powerfist has the same amount of attacks as the normal ones, despite not getting the extra CC weapon. Would actually be in berserkers favour (depending on rolls).

Berzerkers would kill plague marines even up in CC even though the plagues are a bit more expensive. Blight grenades only work for one round so provide little bonus. Berzerkers are always +1 attack, +1 initiative, and +1 weapon skill over the plagues. All the plagues have is +1 toughness, which is cancelled out just by the weaponskill discrepency. With the extra attack and always attacking first the Berzerkers are assured to win with average dice rolls.

The plague marines trait is survivability and 2 special weapons per five men. You don't buy plague marines as assault troops, if you do you just waste points. Don't buy more than five, and don't buy them a fist champ. Way too expensive for what you want them to do, drive around in a rhino with melta/plasma and take or hold objectives.

Now throwing armywide buffs into the mix the plagues are the obvious winner. Epidemus gives the best buffs in the game, and Fateweaver in a Thousand Sons themed army is probably #2. Better than any Loyalist chapter master or Grand Master buffs!

Zerkers at the moment have lost a certain edge thy had with furious charge. Comparing them in combat with Plague Marines seems a bit strange, not sure what that is meant to show. Plagues are more survivable, and can take double melta/plasma. Zerkers are an assault unit, they'll still kill lots, but they'll take more wounds because a lot of the time, rather than going first they'll go at the same time.

Plauge marines are a rock solid troop choice, they can take most things in assault, provide decent ranged support and hold objectives like a boss.

They can be built to handle almost anything in the game, and stock standard have an answer to everything.

Beserkers on the other hand, only do one thing well (assault). And in the new addition beserkers got nerfed..... whilst plague marines got buffed.

I always use plague marines ( i play a nurgle list) so i might be a little bias. But i prefer the all round nature of the plague marines as opposed to beserkers.

Beserkers only out perform plague marines in one role...
melee.

Also showing that one unit can beat another is not really showing one is better then the other.

.....Tho plague marines win and as a previous poster showed they do pretty well in melee as well.

Give it a few weeks and we'll see what changes have been made under the new codex. The rumors I keep hearing thrown around have Berserkers lowered in cost and getting rending. That might change things a little bit. of course since I'm about half way through painting up a World Eaters army, that may be wishful thinking on my part!

As an aside, let me me say I find how commonplace Plague Marines are now to be slightly depressing. I like to say "I was Chaos before Chaos was cool" in that Nurgle Chaos Renegades were my second army (back in the days of the "Lost and the Damned" book) and for the longest time I was the only one I knew who played a Nurgle flavored army. Now they are everywere. If it were not for my Nurgle army being all RT and 2nd edition models, my stuff not not stand out in the crowd at all these days.

TR

Yeah the big three that you get are Noxious Touch (CC attacks become Poisoned +2)

I'm sorry but this is Incorrect! Because this is a specific wargear that is only available to Daemon troops, the plague marines cannot get it.

The only things plague marines can accurately get, are FNP(3+) and ignores all armour saves. Even if it's still a very scary prospect.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Yeah the big three that you get are Noxious Touch (CC attacks become Poisoned +2)

I'm sorry but this is Incorrect! Because this is a specific wargear that is only available to Daemon troops, the plague marines cannot get it.

The only things plague marines can accurately get, are FNP(3+) and ignores all armour saves. Even if it's still a very scary prospect.

"All followers of nurgle gain noxious touch" (wound on a 2+). I don't see how that would be specific to demons. The one before that, where plague swords wound on a 2+ would be specific to plaguebearers, but the noxious touch doesn't discriminate.

Grey Templar wrote:Epidemius has this special rule called Tally. You keep track of how many models(or is it wounds?) that Nurgle models kill. Depending on how many, it gives ever increasing bonuses to Nurgle units.

One of the things is 3+ FnP, the highest one is ignore armor saves on all Nurgle attacks(ranged and melee IIRC)

Poison might be one of the things.

Actually epidemius's bonuses don't only apply to nurgle units either unless it specifically says in the line entry that it only applies to nurgle units. If his tally improves poisoned attacks *all* poisoned attacks on the table get improved, good or bad. Only wounds caused by nurgle models are marked on the tally, though. So if you had dark eldar as opponent and poisoned attacks were improved the DE would benefit as well, so it is more of a mixed blessing than a perfect empowerment.

Skriker

Skriker wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Epidemius has this special rule called Tally. You keep track of how many models(or is it wounds?) that Nurgle models kill. Depending on how many, it gives ever increasing bonuses to Nurgle units. One of the things is 3+ FnP, the highest one is ignore armor saves on all Nurgle attacks(ranged and melee IIRC) Poison might be one of the things.

Actually epidemius's bonuses don't only apply to nurgle units either unless it specifically says in the line entry that it only applies to nurgle units. If his tally improves poisoned attacks *all* poisoned attacks on the table get improved, good or bad. Only wounds caused by nurgle models are marked on the tally, though. So if you had dark eldar as opponent and poisoned attacks were improved the DE would benefit as well, so it is more of a mixed blessing than a perfect empowerment. Skriker

Meh, so it would benifit Dark Eldar. Space Marine poison already wounds on 2+(suck it Nurgle )

Kevlar wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Yeah the big three that you get are Noxious Touch (CC attacks become Poisoned +2)

I'm sorry but this is Incorrect! Because this is a specific wargear that is only available to Daemon troops, the plague marines cannot get it.

The only things plague marines can accurately get, are FNP(3+) and ignores all armour saves. Even if it's still a very scary prospect.

"All followers of nurgle gain noxious touch" (wound on a 2+). I don't see how that would be specific to demons. The one before that, where plague swords wound on a 2+ would be specific to plaguebearers, but the noxious touch doesn't discriminate.

It's the rules under Noxious touch however.

"The Daemon's close combats attacks are poisoned"

Mark of Nurgle followers aren't daemon's, thus they have it..But can't use it.

Obviously it should transfer to the PMs. GW needs to FAQ stuff that crosses Codices.

Grey Templar wrote:Obviously it should transfer to the PMs. GW needs to FAQ stuff that crosses Codices.

Unless Mark of Nurgle grants plague swords, I'm going to be inclined to believe that noxious touch isn't going to be theirs either. The rule does specifically state Daemons. (Of course this was in an era when they were trying to separate daemons and chaos Hard)