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See thats the whole reason I was looking at them. Any shooting they direct at the spores isnt being directed at my other units right? I know for shorter range armies its not as big a bonus but what about for, say, Tau whose regular gun can still reach out and touch you? I'm just trying to fully understand why they are considered below even dimey and just barely above Swarmlord?

Instead of deflecting fire from useful units, just buy more useful units. Because for the price of 3 of then you can have a max size unit of just about anything in the dex. And also as pointed out it's often unlikely to deflect any shooting probly just eat the shots of everything not in range turn 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
What he needs is a 4++ ALL THE TIME, not just Melee

This, wings, and a point reduction. And assault grenades. Then he's usable.

Ok fair enough, but out of curiosity would they work along with the DLAB like i originally had in my list? Just to saturate the area with units or would it still be better off moving the points to gribblies?

EDIT: Please be advised I am not at all trying to argue with you guys, just trying to invalidate my inexperienced theories by taking advice from the way more experienced players

 SHUPPET wrote:
Instead of deflecting fire from useful units, just buy more useful units. Because for the price of 3 of then you can have a max size unit of just about anything in the dex. And also as pointed out it's often unlikely to deflect any shooting probly just eat the shots of everything not in range turn 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
What he needs is a 4++ ALL THE TIME, not just Melee

This, wings, and a point reduction. And assault grenades. Then he's usable.

I'd actually be fine with just lvl 4 and access to all 7 powers.

Getting an 1850 Double CAD practice game in tomorrow for Mechanicon against a SM Bike net list, Ravenwing.

Taking

Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Malanthrope
Malanthrope
Ripper w/DS
Ripper w/DS
Mawloc
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Ripper w/DS
Ripper
Carnifex w/Dev

Now that seems like a solid list, however, I do have a Hive Tyrant here I was going to paint as Swarmlord for the next painting competition. I COULD just give him wings and devourers, paint him up and run quad Tyrant like so:

Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Malanthrope (OR two Venoms as I have the 5 extra to do so)
Ripper w/DS
Ripper w/DS
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Ripper w/DS
Ripper w/DS
Mawloc

So I gain the longer living Flyrant but lose the vehicle destroying Fex. Also losing a malanthrope means Carnifexes could go crazy, but then again I could cast dominion often and cross flight patterns to ensure synapse.

3 Tyrants is already cheese, 4 isnt any more or less. Whats everyone think?

 SHUPPET wrote:
Instead of deflecting fire from useful units, just buy more useful units. Because for the price of 3 of then you can have a max size unit of just about anything in the dex.

 SHUPPET wrote:
That spore is pretty terrible. Defender a contender actually. I'll agree tis worse than the Dima. Possibly not Swarmlord level since it doesn't cost you just under 300 pts + HG tax + Zope tax even though his role is meant to be Synapse. Points dedicated to fail units alone, I'd say I stand a better chance of winning with a list with Spores in it than a list with Swarmlord in it, making the Swarmy worse to me. Taken in even amount of points though, yeah that Spore is absolute trash lol

 SHUPPET wrote:
3 Makanthropes and a bastion seems like a bit of overkill. That's 3 Mawlocs worth of points spent securing a two point cover bonus.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'll agree tis worse than the Dima.

Why do you continue to talk bad about the Dima? You could have easily said this unit is one of the worst units in the codex. Instead you throw salt in a wound which potentially could start another civil war, do you not see that as an insult to some? I dont want to sound harsh but it seems that you are unable to see the usefullness of units in the codex and whats worse you quickly bash any new ideas as you can see from your last few quotes and this is only the last 3 pages. Are you aware that according to you there are 2 maybe 3 list you can play when using nids? I have zero interest in your tactica about tyranids because you think everything outside of a few units suck.

I have one question for all players which is better the player who recognizes potential in a unit or the one who cannot see any use at all in a unit?

There is no doubt that 4 tyrants will do work. It is also one of the main builds that the folks against dual CAD will point too as the reason to limit them. Is what it is though.

I think you need to stick with the malanthrope -- its synapse that can babysit the carnifexes while the tyrants rome ahead.

Also is mechanicon allowing FW? East Coast seems so against it so its surprising.

Yea man, FW is in apparently.

I'm considering adding some Stone Crusher Carnifexes to my army for variety.

At first glance, I was thinking that Wrecker Claws was the way to go. 15 points cheaper and the sunder special rule is great. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm concerned that Tarpitting it may be way, way, way too easy. 5 Gaunts could Tarpit it for the entire game.

So, I'm taking a second look at the Wrecker Claw + Bio-Flail load out. It seems like too much to spend to avoid tarpits. Is there anyone who can make a case for the Bio-flail being the better wargear choice?

Ive all too often run into tarpitted fexes. The flail would absolutely be my choice, if anything for the absolute coolness factor.

4 flyrants is boss.

tag8833 wrote:
I'm considering adding some Stone Crusher Carnifexes to my army for variety.

At first glance, I was thinking that Wrecker Claws was the way to go. 15 points cheaper and the sunder special rule is great. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm concerned that Tarpitting it may be way, way, way too easy. 5 Gaunts could Tarpit it for the entire game.

So, I'm taking a second look at the Wrecker Claw + Bio-Flail load out. It seems like too much to spend to avoid tarpits. Is there anyone who can make a case for the Bio-flail being the better wargear choice?

If you're running more than one, keep them in a brood with one with a flail. If a tarpit makes a beeline for your brood put the flail on that side.

 CKO wrote:

Spoiler:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Instead of deflecting fire from useful units, just buy more useful units. Because for the price of 3 of then you can have a max size unit of just about anything in the dex.

 SHUPPET wrote:
That spore is pretty terrible. Defender a contender actually. I'll agree tis worse than the Dima. Possibly not Swarmlord level since it doesn't cost you just under 300 pts + HG tax + Zope tax even though his role is meant to be Synapse. Points dedicated to fail units alone, I'd say I stand a better chance of winning with a list with Spores in it than a list with Swarmlord in it, making the Swarmy worse to me. Taken in even amount of points though, yeah that Spore is absolute trash lol

 SHUPPET wrote:
3 Makanthropes and a bastion seems like a bit of overkill. That's 3 Mawlocs worth of points spent securing a two point cover bonus.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'll agree tis worse than the Dima.

Why do you continue to talk bad about the Dima? You could have easily said this unit is one of the worst units in the codex. Instead you throw salt in a wound which potentially could start another civil war, do you not see that as an insult to some? I dont want to sound harsh but it seems that you are unable to see the usefullness of units in the codex and whats worse you quickly bash any new ideas as you can see from your last few quotes and this is only the last 3 pages. Are you aware that according to you there are 2 maybe 3 list you can play when using nids? I have zero interest in your tactica about tyranids because you think everything outside of a few units suck.

80% of what you quoted is completely unrelated to your point and are separate statements/questions about the Malanthrope/Spore. The other part is me giving my opinion on the Hierarchy of trash for our army. I can back up everything I say with logic. Or what I'm not allowed to say bad units are bad anymore? None of what I say is at all relevant to how you want to play the codex, what you WANT the units to do means nothing to me, my posts are honest statements about what they can do. And no, there is far far FARRRR more than 3 sensible lists, that's you pushing your mid founded conclusion on to me. On top of that my post is in no way directed to you, so if Tactica that doesn't involve recognising subpar units doesn't interest you than by all means don't respond, my Swarmlord statements are in absolutely no way directed to you.

I have one question for all players which is better the player who recognizes potential in a unit or the one who cannot see any use at all in a unit?

Oh nice, insinuations that I'm a worse player than you. The fact is I DO recognise the potential in ALL units, and some have more of it than others. When I happen to be wrong about if I admit it. Throwing your hands in the air at me for being a realist isn't going to change how well a unit performs, how about sharing the logic behind your opinions and maybe convincing people otherwise, instead of just being that guy with zero games as Tyranid whose motto is "every unit in the dex has it's role" telling people not to play Nids competitively by pretending that crap tier units don't exist.

And in response to the question, the answer is neither: the best player is the one with an honest open-minded response to each unit, who is capable of using unbiased judgement to recognise both the best and worse units.

That's enough--be polite to each other and objective about the discussion. A couple of users within this thread are starting to cross the line from 'spirited debate' to outright rudeness.

Last warning for the thread.

Ryan

 winterman wrote:

Spoiler:

Getting an 1850 Double CAD practice game in tomorrow for Mechanicon against a SM Bike net list, Ravenwing.

Taking

Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Malanthrope
Malanthrope
Ripper w/DS
Ripper w/DS
Mawloc
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Ripper w/DS
Ripper
Carnifex w/Dev

Now that seems like a solid list, however, I do have a Hive Tyrant here I was going to paint as Swarmlord for the next painting competition. I COULD just give him wings and devourers, paint him up and run quad Tyrant like so:

Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Malanthrope (OR two Venoms as I have the 5 extra to do so)
Ripper w/DS
Ripper w/DS
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Ripper w/DS
Ripper w/DS
Mawloc

So I gain the longer living Flyrant but lose the vehicle destroying Fex. Also losing a malanthrope means Carnifexes could go crazy, but then again I could cast dominion often and cross flight patterns to ensure synapse.

3 Tyrants is already cheese, 4 isnt any more or less. Whats everyone think?

There is no doubt that 4 tyrants will do work. It is also one of the main builds that the folks against dual CAD will point too as the reason to limit them. Is what it is though.

I think you need to stick with the malanthrope -- its synapse that can babysit the carnifexes while the tyrants rome ahead.

Also is mechanicon allowing FW? East Coast seems so against it so its surprising.

This list seems extremely strong, with 84 TL S6 shots and the Mawloc blast! I predict you will put a much more hurt on the Ravenwing than he does to you.

Seems strong, but is there any other option than spamming 4 flyrants these days??Its almost like the Tervigon days in 5th and the beginning of 6th edition.

I am going to test out a 1850-2500 point list tomorrow. I will post my list and results vs Eldar and Am tomorrow night. I just really do not want to spam tyrants with wings to have to win a game or a tournament. There has to be a different way.

Other than that the list is really strong; it should have great success, but if those 1's and 2's happen to flood your board it could be a really rough day for you with relatively nothing to back up your list.

Oh definitely, 4 Flyrants will pay off some games but not others, its definitely not the only option. I'd say no more or less than 2 is the standard, unless doubling down for 4. Against Marines its going to be nice. Flyrants are very expensive, and aside from diminishing returns for Psykers, you generally also have your Synapse fairly well covered after 2 unless you are Swooping max range for cross field aggression, which is probably more doable with 4. I don't think Flyrants are the spammable centre-piece of Nids, that description is definitely more applicable to Dakkafex. The question of whether spamming multiple Fexes is the only competitive option is probably a better one, and although I think the answer is no, its probably one of the better ones.'

By 1's and 2's do you mean rolls? Because they will hurt every list but far less one with Flyrants, with BS4 Twin-linked being the most reliable shooting in the dex per model, even if very costly.



EDIT: have no idea how this double posted, especially considering I only clicked submit once, and Dakka is meant to auto-add subsequent posts to the last one regardless :S

tag8833 wrote:
I'm considering adding some Stone Crusher Carnifexes to my army for variety.

At first glance, I was thinking that Wrecker Claws was the way to go. 15 points cheaper and the sunder special rule is great. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm concerned that Tarpitting it may be way, way, way too easy. 5 Gaunts could Tarpit it for the entire game.

So, I'm taking a second look at the Wrecker Claw + Bio-Flail load out. It seems like too much to spend to avoid tarpits. Is there anyone who can make a case for the Bio-flail being the better wargear choice?

I looked at the Crusher fexes properly and realised that for all their Amazing...

They -have- to get the charge. There is no other option for them. At one less base attack than a normal carnifex with no second melee weapon they are effectively two attacks down from a base Carnifex. However, AP2 HoW hits are clearly where it is at. But more than anything else its about positioning - you're really going to have no choice but to go for vehicles or small elite units (if you see a unit of Terminators without Storm Shields...rejoice!).

The thing with the Bio-Flail is the fact it comes with instant death. The Sweep attack is a nice option but against a big enough tarpit really won't be that effective to clear away a tarpit whereas the Instant Death will help with other annoying troublesome units that we will come across - looking at Wraithknights, Dreadknights, Wraithlords or other MCs in particular.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
I'm considering adding some Stone Crusher Carnifexes to my army for variety.

At first glance, I was thinking that Wrecker Claws was the way to go. 15 points cheaper and the sunder special rule is great. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm concerned that Tarpitting it may be way, way, way too easy. 5 Gaunts could Tarpit it for the entire game.

So, I'm taking a second look at the Wrecker Claw + Bio-Flail load out. It seems like too much to spend to avoid tarpits. Is there anyone who can make a case for the Bio-flail being the better wargear choice?

I looked at the Crusher fexes properly and realised that for all their Amazing...

They -have- to get the charge. There is no other option for them. At one less base attack than a normal carnifex with no second melee weapon they are effectively two attacks down from a base Carnifex. However, AP2 HoW hits are clearly where it is at. But more than anything else its about positioning - you're really going to have no choice but to go for vehicles or small elite units (if you see a unit of Terminators without Storm Shields...rejoice!).

The thing with the Bio-Flail is the fact it comes with instant death. The Sweep attack is a nice option but against a big enough tarpit really won't be that effective to clear away a tarpit whereas the Instant Death will help with other annoying troublesome units that we will come across - looking at Wraithknights, Dreadknights, Wraithlords or other MCs in particular.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking. I will definitely end up with a few Stonecrushers, but Bio-Flails are just so much more versatile. The only times I can see the Claws being better are against enemy Walkers (which may charge you), or large fortifications. For everything else the combination of a huge number of attacks from Sweep and ID should carry you through.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
I'm considering adding some Stone Crusher Carnifexes to my army for variety.

At first glance, I was thinking that Wrecker Claws was the way to go. 15 points cheaper and the sunder special rule is great. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm concerned that Tarpitting it may be way, way, way too easy. 5 Gaunts could Tarpit it for the entire game.

So, I'm taking a second look at the Wrecker Claw + Bio-Flail load out. It seems like too much to spend to avoid tarpits. Is there anyone who can make a case for the Bio-flail being the better wargear choice?

I looked at the Crusher fexes properly and realised that for all their Amazing...

They -have- to get the charge. There is no other option for them. At one less base attack than a normal carnifex with no second melee weapon they are effectively two attacks down from a base Carnifex. However, AP2 HoW hits are clearly where it is at. But more than anything else its about positioning - you're really going to have no choice but to go for vehicles or small elite units (if you see a unit of Terminators without Storm Shields...rejoice!).

The thing with the Bio-Flail is the fact it comes with instant death. The Sweep attack is a nice option but against a big enough tarpit really won't be that effective to clear away a tarpit whereas the Instant Death will help with other annoying troublesome units that we will come across - looking at Wraithknights, Dreadknights, Wraithlords or other MCs in particular.

You make a very convincing case. That is exactly what I was looking for. I think I will get the bits for 1 SC with Bio-Flail and 1 SC with Wrecker Claws. That way I could run one of each in a squad. They don't seem like they would fit in my TAC list, but I think I can find uses for them when facing specific opponents. Like Land Raider spam.

I watched a Land Raider spam Blood angles go against an I.G. armored company last night. The I.G. Fired a demolisher cannon at a Land Raider first turn. It scatted and hit both. 2 Pens, 2 failed 5+ covers, 2 Explode results. It did not go well for the Land Raider Spam.

So I took my 4 Flyrants of the Apocalypse against an all bike Ravenwing 1850 tourney army for my first practice game. It did include the +2 cover boosting vehicle whos name I currently cant remember, so he was jinking with two ups on his bikes quite often. He also rolled invisibility and dominate, whereas I got all onslaught, paroxysm and Horror...8 chances to get catalyst to no avail.


I rolled master of ambush and pushed two fex with the malanthrope up with the warlord, with everyone else behind to grab the malan's cover save. He made his scout moves and then SEIZED.

So worst case scenario of bike alpha strike. When that turn was over I had lost my warlord, a fex, a wound on a tyrant who jinked, and another fex was reduced to one. But from there I played smart and fried to the vehicle, and pulled my fexes back to force him into my deployment zone while my fliers went the other way. Malanthrope stuck with the fexes.

I selected my targets well, jinked at the right times and picked apart his army slowly but surely despite his FNP rolls being insane. Malanthrope got locked into combat and kicked extreme ass, lasting several rounds even with him hitting and running in and out of combat and killed a ton of bikers. Mawloc hit once, in the middle of a sea of bikers, she was fantastic and would mishap off to later secure an objective. Even my rippers did a great job holding their objectives and tarpitting.

His list is no joke and most everyone thought the game would be over by turn 3 after his first turn, but it was swung just with three Tyrants having great positioning. It needs practicing but the 4 Tyrants/Dakkafex/Ripper/Mawloc/Malanthrope team is probably what Ill take to Mechanicon.

For all the problems a SLord has, what killed it for me, was the nerf to his opponents having to Reroll successful invulns.

He was always slow, but at least he used to be the baddest badass on the table, now..... Not so much.

 Iechine wrote:
So I took my 4 Flyrants of the Apocalypse against an all bike Ravenwing 1850 tourney army for my first practice game. It did include the +2 cover boosting vehicle whos name I currently cant remember, so he was jinking with two ups on his bikes quite often. He also rolled invisibility and dominate, whereas I got all onslaught, paroxysm and Horror...8 chances to get catalyst to no avail.


I rolled master of ambush and pushed two fex with the malanthrope up with the warlord, with everyone else behind to grab the malan's cover save. He made his scout moves and then SEIZED.

So worst case scenario of bike alpha strike. When that turn was over I had lost my warlord, a fex, a wound on a tyrant who jinked, and another fex was reduced to one. But from there I played smart and fried to the vehicle, and pulled my fexes back to force him into my deployment zone while my fliers went the other way. Malanthrope stuck with the fexes.

I selected my targets well, jinked at the right times and picked apart his army slowly but surely despite his FNP rolls being insane. Malanthrope got locked into combat and kicked extreme ass, lasting several rounds even with him hitting and running in and out of combat and killed a ton of bikers. Mawloc hit once, in the middle of a sea of bikers, she was fantastic and would mishap off to later secure an objective. Even my rippers did a great job holding their objectives and tarpitting.

His list is no joke and most everyone thought the game would be over by turn 3 after his first turn, but it was swung just with three Tyrants having great positioning. It needs practicing but the 4 Tyrants/Dakkafex/Ripper/Mawloc/Malanthrope team is probably what Ill take to Mechanicon.

brutal.

 Iechine wrote:
So I took my 4 Flyrants of the Apocalypse against an all bike Ravenwing 1850 tourney army for my first practice game. It did include the +2 cover boosting vehicle whos name I currently cant remember, so he was jinking with two ups on his bikes quite often. He also rolled invisibility and dominate, whereas I got all onslaught, paroxysm and Horror...8 chances to get catalyst to no avail.


I rolled master of ambush and pushed two fex with the malanthrope up with the warlord, with everyone else behind to grab the malan's cover save. He made his scout moves and then SEIZED.

So worst case scenario of bike alpha strike. When that turn was over I had lost my warlord, a fex, a wound on a tyrant who jinked, and another fex was reduced to one. But from there I played smart and fried to the vehicle, and pulled my fexes back to force him into my deployment zone while my fliers went the other way. Malanthrope stuck with the fexes.

I selected my targets well, jinked at the right times and picked apart his army slowly but surely despite his FNP rolls being insane. Malanthrope got locked into combat and kicked extreme ass, lasting several rounds even with him hitting and running in and out of combat and killed a ton of bikers. Mawloc hit once, in the middle of a sea of bikers, she was fantastic and would mishap off to later secure an objective. Even my rippers did a great job holding their objectives and tarpitting.

His list is no joke and most everyone thought the game would be over by turn 3 after his first turn, but it was swung just with three Tyrants having great positioning. It needs practicing but the 4 Tyrants/Dakkafex/Ripper/Mawloc/Malanthrope team is probably what Ill take to Mechanicon.

The four flyrant list is very similar to the list that I want to try out. And not just because it would require another flyrant, which I have taken great joy in converting to each be murdering something in a fun and dynamic pose. Once the paint jobs are finished I'll definitely post pics. One is using an actual dreadnought as the base, having his tail gored through the chest of the walker. Another is basically vector striking a fallen killa kan, and the third is a more normal pose, but mounted on a hill of actual heads from various races and models.

It was definitely shenanigans even with just the three Tyrants being alive. Not being grounded helps, but I think the joy of 4 tyrants circling the board (which is how I ran them) shooting and synapsing gives me hope for prevailing.

Talking about the swarmlord, if i wanted to head swap one with a more warriorish head, what would you suggest?

Trygon head or even Mawloc to give a predator--esque look to it might be cool, not sure about fitting tho.

Spoletta wrote:
Talking about the swarmlord, if i wanted to head swap one with a more warriorish head, what would you suggest?

I scalped one of mine and shaved down a Trygon headplate for that look.

Very cool!

First proper go with my hierophant yesterday in a 4k a side game against an Iyanden themed Eldar army complete with Revenant and damn can the big girl eat!

I upgraded her with the transport option and loaded her up with a 20 strong 'stealer and broodlord with the aim of a turn one assault (I went second) against the softer body of his army, Wraithguard. He'd upgraded his ten man strong Wraithguard with D Scythes so I used the 'stealers to soak up the overwatch as that many D Scythes would have made a mess of the big lady, so the 'stealers ended up being expensive cannon fodder.

Using this strategy I went through two ten man units of Wraithguard before losing the 'stealers and a third having to weather the D Scythes. After that appetizer she then ate the Revenant after the Zoes' softened him up with lances. Fantastic return on the investment of points, win for me as I had more objectives and more VP.