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p. 118 states that lists in 40k are now closed, exchanged after the match, unless otherwise agreed upon by the players. I wrote a short blurb about this Capture and Control: No More Open Army Lists in 40k!? Overall I can see this being problematic in the competitive scene.

As far as tournaments go I see this being handled a few ways.

1. Lists are closed. Bad option imo.

2. Lists are open. Best option imo.

3. Lists are played as the rule on p. 118 states. Problematic at best.

If you go with option 2 there will be a huge upswing in cheating, it will simply be too much to resist for some people.

Option 3 will cause problems as well. An example: I want to play with open lists, my opponent does not. In a normal game we can just walk away and play someone else. In a tournament that is not an option. The brb doesn't state either way in that situation which player is correct or which way the ruling should go. A dice off in this situation would do nothing but create ill feelings between the players, as would an arbitrary ruling from a TO.

So what are the thoughts of the Dakka tournament forum on this?

The game becomes unplayable, especially when people are not playing WYSIWYG which most FLGS people like to claim to do in casual games.

In tourneys, if the event requires 100% WYSIWYG then it shouldn't be an issue outside some things... but people claim they would have hidden grenades... And the PSYCIC power part of the rulebook explicitly says you generate powers openly with your opponent, so no hiding them. And some people claim they can hide reserves...

Not sharing lists does not equate to the extreme secrecy some people claim to be. Some will claim models inside transports are hidden. I should be able to model every figure in my army wearing a long cloak and never tell you what type of model he is or what weapons he has until I actually use them, how about that?

The game breaks down and since there are no rules FOR secrecy and all the rules about secrecy are made up from the concept of not sharing lists... it simply is unplayable.

So what things would technically be 'secret' based upon 118? I bet no one can agree.

*Grenades, do they have to be WYSWIG or can my grenade status be secret?
*Contents of transports, can they be secret?
*My army in reserve, can those units be hidden in a box until I deploy them?
*Purchased psychic powers? Generated Psychic powers? Can I generate them in secret?
*Can I put weapons in holsters so you won't know of that holster is a pistol or a plasma pistol?
*Internal wargear? Do I have to tell you a model has cybork body or terminator honors?


There is no rules outlining any of this so you have to MAKE UP rules to play with secrecy. There are rules for not using secrecy, you hand over your list, answer your opponents questions and not be a douche.

Tourneys will all require open format for the entirety of 6th edition. There is no other way to do it.

OverwatchCNC wrote:1. Lists are closed. Bad option imo.

2. Lists are open. Best option imo.

3. Lists are played as the rule on p. 118 states. Problematic at best.

If you go with option 2 there will be a huge upswing in cheating, it will simply be too much to resist for some people.

I think you meant "option 1" there.

I don't see tournaments switching to secret lists. While Fantasy has a fairly strong tradition of secrecy (in terms of which magic items are on which models), 40k doesn't have that background. More, 40k has bonus problems with secrecy, relating to sticking units inside of other units, which are mostly absent from Fantasy.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Most TO's will probably do open lists. I know I'll be doing open lists at all my tourneys, WFB or 40k. Takes away a huge amount of hassle and "He has a bad list! In our game he claimed xxx but has yyy" "Did not!" "Did too!!!" ..........

OverwatchCNC wrote:p. 118 states that lists in 40k are now closed, exchanged after the match, unless otherwise agreed upon by the players. I wrote a short blurb about this Capture and Control: No More Open Army Lists in 40k!? Overall I can see this being problematic in the competitive scene.

As far as tournaments go I see this being handled a few ways.

1. Lists are closed. Bad option imo.

2. Lists are open. Best option imo.

3. Lists are played as the rule on p. 118 states. Problematic at best.

If you go with option 2 there will be a huge upswing in cheating, it will simply be too much to resist for some people.

Option 3 will cause problems as well. An example: I want to play with open lists, my opponent does not. In a normal game we can just walk away and play someone else. In a tournament that is not an option. The brb doesn't state either way in that situation which player is correct or which way the ruling should go. A dice off in this situation would do nothing but create ill feelings between the players, as would an arbitrary ruling from a TO.

So what are the thoughts of the Dakka tournament forum on this?

I'm guessing that this will have no effect on the tourney scene seeing how 5th edition also has similar standard rules of showing lists only after the game unless otherwise agreed to (pg 92) and both the competitive and casual scenes largely ignored it. What makes you think that this is any different?

Meh...tournaments will/should check the lists themselves to see if legal or not. Also the standard ATM is show your list before hand and I am pretty sure my area won't be changing that, ESP after how successful the ATC is....it is is based off of list sharing.

So what part of the army list is actually "closed?"

a) You still need to declare in advance what you have in reserve
b) You still need to declare in advance what's in which transport
c) Assuming WYSIWYG is still required in tourneys, you can still see what's what on the table.

The only things that are effectively hidden are Codex psy powers (the rulebook powers need to be rolled in the open) and a few of the more esoteric upgrades like mindshackle scarabs, some chaos gifts and similar.

No one likes 'gotchas'. Its just easier to play the game with your opponents list in your hand so you have the best ability to make mistakes all your own.