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I've recently found this piece of information on a place called the Vault of Origins, located under the Ecclesiarchal Palace. Supposedly it keeps the oldest records of the Imperial Creed (the Lectitio Divinitatus, perhaps?) and on the founding of the Ecclesiarchy. Apparently, only a few people are allowed to enter much less know the knowledge kept here. Which begs the question: do they know of the Emperor's Imperial Truth? And have they been deliberately suppressing it by rewriting history all this time?
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/15 10:40:11
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
You know the Vatican has similar vaults that contain the oldest records of the founding of the church. It's really not that far fetched to believe that while they feel this is the "origins" of the church, that the doctrine has evolved into the modern day Ecclesiarchy. Besides, the Lectitio Divinitatus was strictly anti-imperial truth, so even if they knew of it, they're not actually suppressing it, they just don't believe it. And everyone in the Imperium rewrites history. Then they get killed off and the next guy rewrites history again. Again, not that surprising.
Sounds like a reference to the original 2E Codex:SoB, likely because Andy Hoare was writing stuff for FFG and he remembered this bit:
"The Ecclesiarchy has guided the servants of the Emperor for nearly ten thousand years, but deep within its ancient records its beginnings can still be traced. In the miles of catacombs beneath the Ecclesiarchal palace, the dusty journals of past Ecclesiarchs nestle next to scrolls containing the confessions of heretics and blasphemers. Deeper into the library, fully day's walk from the nearest secret entrance, are the chronicles of Lord Vandire. Even further still is the Vault of Origins, where the earliest records are kept.
Dating back to the Horus Heresy, most of these scripts are kept within pulsating stasis chambers, their pages so brittle they can never again be read or turned. Their beautifully illuminated and illustrated leaves are cracked and torn with age and the letters have faded into indistinct greys.
The secrets of the Vault of Origins are imparted only to the most high-ranking officials of the Ecclesiarchy. Even the Inquisition are denied access to this burial chamber of history, lest they destroy the Ministorum's glorious past in their quest for knowledge and truth."
As for this "Imperial Truth", I do not recall it ever having been mentioned in a GW book, so I wouldn't bet on any references or connections there. The Vault's records date back to a time when the Emperor was still mortal, and the Vault itself basically serves as the "narrator" for the Ecclesiarchy history section in the Codex. It doesn't mention any promulgation of secular beliefs whatsoever, particularly not of the Emperor - that would probably be a shock to a lot of fervent believers, although on second thought I suppose one could throw in a bit of pythonesque humour here: "only the true messiah would deny his divinity!!"
Long story short, if this Imperial Truth fits to your perception of the setting, there's no reason not to include it, and implement a mention of it in the Vault. It can be rather fun drawing up possible connections and explanations to make stuff fit to each other, though I'd recommend giving it the "religious twist" rather than just letting it stand as an actual truth. Would work much better with the Ecclesiarchy's mindset.
As for this "Imperial Truth", I do not recall it ever having been mentioned in a GW book, so I wouldn't bet on any references or connections there. The Vault's records date back to a time when the Emperor was still mortal, and the Vault itself basically serves as the "narrator" for the Ecclesiarchy history section in the Codex. It doesn't mention any promulgation of secular beliefs whatsoever, particularly not of the Emperor - that would probably be a shock to a lot of fervent believers, although on second thought I suppose one could throw in a bit of pythonesque humour here: "only the true messiah would deny his divinity!!"
Long story short, if this Imperial Truth fits to your perception of the setting, there's no reason not to include it, and implement a mention of it in the Vault. It can be rather fun drawing up possible connections and explanations to make stuff fit to each other, though I'd recommend giving it the "religious twist" rather than just letting it stand as an actual truth. Would work much better with the Ecclesiarchy's mindset.
Considering that the Horus Heresy novels (which are the new canon for the Horus Heresy as per GW) make it clear the Imperial truth was the Imperium's original doctrine, it would thus be logical to assume that the ones who had the Vault made decided not to include any references to the Imperial Truth or the Emperor's own opposition to his worship (such as the Condemnation of Monarchia) as this could possibly lead to a civil war. Which begs a question: the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition have no direct authority over the Space Marines - those Chapters dating back to the Second Founding would probably have the records of the Imperial Truth dating back to the legions and the Great Crusade. If so, have they ever considered using that knowledge as 'leverage'?
The only thing that might date back to the Great Crusade itself could be a copy of the Lectitio Divinitatus. Whose author was Lorgar the Aurelian. Does the Ecclesiarchy know this? Do they realize that their faith is a product of one of the greatest traitors in Imperial history?
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Tadashi wrote:Which begs a question: the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition have no direct authority over the Space Marines - those Chapters dating back to the Second Founding would probably have the records of the Imperial Truth dating back to the legions and the Great Crusade. If so, have they ever considered using that knowledge as 'leverage'?
I don't see how they could - everybody would simply disregard any such claims as heretical lies. What proof could they have? Short of Emps getting off his seat and declaring it BS Himself, any possible documents would simply be discarded as fake and their owners excommunicated as traitors attempting to undermine the Imperium's stability.
Also, both the Ecclesiarchy as well as the Inquisition do occasionally exercise a sort of authority over the Marines. The Inquisition is operating in the Emperor's name Himself, and in spite of what some Marine players think (I do remember the threads about this issue) the studio sources make repeated references to the Inquisition being well within its rights to demand stuff from the Astartes - in theory at least. With the Ecclesiarchy, however, it is far more blurred: the Orders Militant often call upon the basic tenets of the Imperial Creed as justification for their actions, simply assuming a position of authority in doing so, and possibly "abusing" their good relationship with the Ordo Hereticus to get away with it. I recall General Kurov of the Armageddon Command Guard referencing the Argent Shroud's "mandate to police Imperial armed forces" in connection with this Order's attack on the Angels Vermillion Chapter, yet I suspect this mandate is a self-assumed responsibility rather than something actively approved by the High Lords. At the end of the day, a lot of Imperial factions just get away with gak like this because nobody dares to chastise them for it - the more you tug on the individual strands that make up the Imperium, the more you risk it all falling apart. So the most that happens is usually the responsible commander being replaced and/or eliminated, and I expect the Inquisition to play a large role in "balancing" the various factions' relationships this way. At least that's what I was taking away from reading the stuff.
In a way, if you think of the Imperium, imagine a kindergarten class with lots of squabbling children all representing the various Adepta, and the teacher is the Inquisition trying to keep the peace, occasionally sending one of them into the corner.
And if some Marine Chapter Master showed up with claims like these, it's him who would be sent into that corner. Forcefully.
Tadashi wrote:The only thing that might date back to the Great Crusade itself could be a copy of the Lectitio Divinitatus. Whose author was Lorgar the Aurelian. Does the Ecclesiarchy know this? Do they realize that their faith is a product of one of the greatest traitors in Imperial history?
Another name that never actually popped up in a GW book, I think. As per the Codex material so far, the origin of Imperial Faith is attributed to some guy called "Fatidicus" - an Imperial Navy officer whose original name has supposedly become lost long ago, and who established the "Temple of the Saviour Emperor" out of the ranks of military officers, clerks and scribes, with their original powerbase being the Imperial forces of Terra, shortly after the Emperor's sacrifice.
It may be worth noting that, at least as per GW material, there were numerous little cults formed in the wake of the Emperor's death, all competing for supremacy, and that the Temple of the Saviour Emperor just had a lot of advantages (such as being centered on Earth, or having a lot of influence with the military) that ultimately saw it prevail over its rivals, either absorbing them entirely or wiping them out. So if you'd want to include this Lectitio Divinatatus into your interpretation of the setting, I suppose it would be one of the many small puzzle parts that ended up being integrated into the Ecclesiarchy at some point in time (or being destroyed).
Also, obligatory:
Tadashi wrote:which are the new canon for the Horus Heresy as per GW
Canon? In 40k?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/16 06:42:09
Tadashi wrote:Short of Emps getting off his seat and declaring it BS Himself, any possible documents would simply be discarded as fake and their owners excommunicated as traitors attempting to undermine the Imperium's stability.
In the impossible event it happens...Monarchia II, here we come.
the more you tug on the individual strands that make up the Imperium, the more you risk it all falling apart. So the most that happens is usually the responsible commander being replaced and/or eliminated, and I expect the Inquisition to play a large role in "balancing" the various factions' relationships this way. At least that's what I was taking away from reading the stuff.
I recall someone posting once that the Imperium resembled a plane on auto-pilot - everything the Imperium does is never actually done by the pilot (the Emperor), who's either comatose or dead, and everything is just an instinctive reaction to an outside stimulus by the auto-pilot (the High Lords and the Adeptus Terra).
In a why, if you think of the Imperium, imagine a kindergarten class with lots of squabbling children all representing the various Adepta, and the teacher is the Inquisition trying to keep the peace, occasionally sending one of them into the corner.
Before kindergarten...there was nursery.
And if some Marine Chapter Master showed up with claims like these, it's him who would be sent into that corner. Forcefully.
Not necessarily...the Wolves' Chapter Master did something similar over Armageddon...sparking a minor civil war and even killing a Khornate Knight Grand Master or something.
Tadashi wrote:which are the new canon for the Horus Heresy as per GW
Canon? In 40k?
Fair enough...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/07/16 12:57:49
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Tadashi wrote:I recall someone posting once that the Imperium resembled a plain on auto-pilot - everything the Imperium does is never actually done by the pilot (the Emperor), who's either comatose or dead, and everything is just an instinctive reaction to an outside stimulus by the auto-pilot (the High Lords and the Adeptus Terra.
Yeah, imo that's not a bad comparison, actually.
GW's Inquisitor RPG even had an introductory short story about some Inquisitors being aware of a way to resurrect the Emperor - and simply choosing to "not do it", as that might be bad for the IoM that exists now, and they just prefer Him as a figurehead to unite people behind:
Spoiler:
"The Golden Throne works", one said, his voice aged and cracked. "The Emperor's life can be sustained indefinitely."
"His soul lives on?", another imquired, his long, sharp nose protruding from under the lip of his hood. "It is not an empty husk?"
"It is not", the first voice confirmed. "The Emperor has ascended to the next plane, but the link 'twixt body and spirit remains strong."
"Then it can be brought back", suggested the third, a young woman whose flowing white hair spilled from her hood and down to her waist. "The Emperor need not suffer this hideous eternal life in death."
"We cannot risk such a thing!", the first hissed. "What if the spiritual link were severed? What if the person brought back was not the man we once knew? Changed? News of the Emperor's ... ascension is already widespread. He is being revered as a god already on a hundred worlds. In this time of rebuilding, we need a symbol. The Emperor has shown us the way. Anyway, who would believe the Emperor had returned so soon? It would cause a civil war more devastating than that of the fool Horus, and even now we have yet to start counting the cost of that. No, better that this knowledge remains hidden. When we pass on to join the Emperor, it will die with us."
Tadashi wrote:Before kindergarten...there was nursery.
Yeah, I remembered that picture the moment I wrote that line.
Tadashi wrote:Not necessarily...the Wolves' Chapter Master did something similar over Armageddon...sparking a minor civil war and even killing a Khornate Knight Grand Master or something.
Weren't they "just" disagreeing on what to do with the Imperial Guard survivors? I've never heard of them Wolves threatening to unveil some sort of proof that the Ecclesiarchy was a scam.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/16 07:12:29
"The Golden Throne works", one said, his voice aged and cracked. "The Emperor's life can be sustained indefinitely."
"His soul lives on?", another imquired, his long, sharp nose protruding from under the lip of his hood. "It is not an empty husk?"
"It is not", the first voice confirmed. "The Emperor has ascended to the next plane, but the link 'twixt body and spirit remains strong."
"Then it can be brought back", suggested the third, a young woman whose flowing white hair spilled from her hood and down to her waist. "The Emperor need not suffer this hideous eternal life in death."
"We cannot risk such a thing!", the first hissed. "What if the spiritual link were severed? What if the person brought back was not the man we once knew? Changed? News of the Emperor's ... ascension is already widespread. He is being revered as a god already on a hundred worlds. In this time of rebuilding, we need a symbol. The Emperor has shown us the way. Anyway, who would believe the Emperor had returned so soon? It would cause a civil war more devastating than that of the fool Horus, and even now we have yet to start counting the cost of that. No, better that this knowledge remains hidden. When we pass on to join the Emperor, it will die with us."
A big mistake in my opinion. They should have at least tried, or consulted one of the Primarchs. The Emperor would have expected that, but by the looks of the conversation, they had already slipped into the fatalistic determinism of the Imperial Cult as opposed to open-minded and innovative mind set of the Imperial Truth.
Tadashi wrote:Not necessarily...the Wolves' Chapter Master did something similar over Armageddon...sparking a minor civil war and even killing a Khornate Knight Grand Master or something.
Weren't they "just" disagreeing on what to do with the Imperial Guard survivors? I've never heard of them Wolves threatening to unveil some sort of proof that the Ecclesiarchy was a scam.
My point was just because a Chapter Master makes a lot of noise the Inquisition can't just throw its power around...especially against a Second Founding Chapter.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Tadashi wrote:
Not necessarily...the Wolves' Chapter Master did something similar over Armageddon...sparking a minor civil war and even killing a Khornate Knight Grand Master or something.
Weren't they "just" disagreeing on what to do with the Imperial Guard survivors? I've never heard of them Wolves threatening to unveil some sort of proof that the Ecclesiarchy was a scam.
My point was just because a Chapter Master makes a lot of noise the Inquisition can't just throw its power around...especially against a Second Founding Chapter.
Codicium Imperialis
Instead, the Administratum and the Inquisition set in motion a plan that would allow the planet’s industrial capacity to recover, without the truth of the conflict becoming known. Every man, woman and child who had fought against Angron’s horde was rounded up by troops drafted in from other warzones, sterilised and relocated to enormous forced-labour camps situated far to the south of Armageddon Secundus
Only one man dared protest against this ultimate sanction, this most craven of betrayals. Logan Grimnar, Great Wolf of the Space Wolf Chapter made his opposition plain, and, privately, many agreed with him. Though he could not sway the faceless adepts of the Administratum,
So not a 2nd founding chapter, as far as we know, but I think the sentiment still applies.
IA: Celestial Lions: The Celestial Lions were highly vocal in their condemnation of the Inquisitor's actions and began a series of loud and highly public criticisms of him and the entire Inquisition.
IA: Celestial Lions: The Inquisition answers to no-one but the Emperor himself.
Plus, the sterilisation of a planetary population is, I think, a far less pressing issue than the continued existence of the fabric of the Imperium itself.
Space Marine Chapters, depending on their importance and history, can get away with an awful lot - even up to refusing an Inquisitor's request for aid. But if this stubborn resistance against outside authority ends up hurting the IoM, then none are above judgment - not even the Astartes (see 3E-C:WH potential battle narratives on why Witch Hunters would fight Space Marines).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/16 12:13:47
Lynata wrote:Plus, the sterilisation of a planetary population is, I think, a far less pressing issue than the continued existence of the fabric of the Imperium itself.
Space Marine Chapters, depending on their importance and history, can get away with an awful lot - even up to refusing an Inquisitor's request for aid. But if this stubborn resistance against outside authority ends up hurting the IoM, then none are above judgment - not even the Astartes (see 3E-C:WH potential battle narratives on why Witch Hunters would fight Space Marines).
The Unforgiven seem to be doing just fine despite their tendency to just walk off on some errand of their own from time to time, or to kill anyone trying to poke around. Last I recall, the Wolves also blew Ecclesiarchy and Sororitas vessels out of the sky for entering Fenris' airspace.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Tadashi wrote:The Unforgiven seem to be doing just fine despite their tendency to just walk off on some errand of their own from time to time, or to kill anyone trying to poke around. Last I recall, the Wolves also blew Ecclesiarchy and Sororitas vessels out of the sky for entering Fenris' airspace.
Yeah, the Space Wolves are "special" and pretty much the only one who seems to have a "get out of jail free" card when it comes to Imperial retribution. Their whole fluff makes a mockery out of 40k, which is why I dislike it immensely. Way too Mary-Sue for my tastes.
And I believe it was an Inquisition vessel they blew up. Those Ministorum priests you are referring to were murdered in front of the Fang's door, and with the Sororitas they waged a three-weeks war on the ground for that.
The Dark Angels are less of an issue as they mostly just seem to walk away - just showing up in the first place already counts for something, I guess, and from how it sounded like they seem to mumble some sort of excuse about how their Chapter was needed elsewhere. I was under the impression they seem to have more trouble with other Marine Chapters (particularly the Black Templars) than with the Inquisition.
Either way, armed conflict, if happening on a limited scope like that, isn't exactly a threat to the Imperium. Attempting to dismantle the Ecclesiarchy as a whole would be, as the role of faith has become way too important for the Imperium. I suppose if the Space Wolves were to try and invade, say, Ophelia VII rather than just defending their own world it would trigger a different reaction as well. Or at least it should, but ... eh, it's the Space Wolves, so who knows.
Either way, armed conflict, if happening on a limited scope like that, isn't exactly a threat to the Imperium. Attempting to dismantle the Ecclesiarchy as a whole would be, as the role of faith has become way too important for the Imperium. I suppose if the Space Wolves were to try and invade, say, Ophelia VII rather than just defending their own world it would trigger a different reaction as well. Or at least it should, but ... eh, it's the Space Wolves, so who knows.
I wonder how the Ecclesiarchy would react when the old man wakes up and goes medieval on their asses. Or Ophelia VII goes the way of Monarchia, with an entire legion with the Emperor on the front accompanied by a Primarch burning everthing to ashes just to make a point. Imagine, their own 'god' telling them he's not a god, and together with a person who's supposed to be saint reducing everything their faith and livelihood stood for to ash and cinders. Just to put salt in the wound, the Emperor then FORCES them to kneel on the ashes and makes them renounce their faith and accept, well, reason, truth, and enlightenment. That would be something to see.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Tadashi wrote:The Unforgiven seem to be doing just fine despite their tendency to just walk off on some errand of their own from time to time, or to kill anyone trying to poke around. Last I recall, the Wolves also blew Ecclesiarchy and Sororitas vessels out of the sky for entering Fenris' airspace.
Yeah, the Space Wolves are "special" and pretty much the only one who seems to have a "get out of jail free" card when it comes to Imperial retribution. Their whole fluff makes a mockery out of 40k, which is why I dislike it immensely. Way too Mary-Sue for my tastes.
And I believe it was an Inquisition vessel they blew up. Those Ministorum priests you are referring to were murdered in front of the Fang's door, and with the Sororitas they waged a three-weeks war on the ground for that.
Was that during the Reign of Blood though? I guess an Eccelsiarchal 'Sorry for attacking your homeworld, we weren't quite ourselves' happened.
Lynata wrote:The Dark Angels are less of an issue as they mostly just seem to walk away - just showing up in the first place already counts for something, I guess, and from how it sounded like they seem to mumble some sort of excuse about how their Chapter was needed elsewhere. I was under the impression they seem to have more trouble with other Marine Chapters (particularly the Black Templars) than with the Inquisition.
Do the Inquisition even know about the Dark Angels past? I thought it was just the Dark Angels and the Emperor who knew. If that's the case and the Dark Angels generally keep their noses clean, why would the Inquisition be interested in them.
Tadashi wrote:
Lynata wrote:
Either way, armed conflict, if happening on a limited scope like that, isn't exactly a threat to the Imperium. Attempting to dismantle the Ecclesiarchy as a whole would be, as the role of faith has become way too important for the Imperium. I suppose if the Space Wolves were to try and invade, say, Ophelia VII rather than just defending their own world it would trigger a different reaction as well. Or at least it should, but ... eh, it's the Space Wolves, so who knows.
I wonder how the Ecclesiarchy would react when the old man wakes up and goes medieval on their asses. Or Ophelia VII goes the way of Monarchia, with an entire legion with the Emperor on the front accompanied by a Primarch burning everthing to ashes just to make a point. Imagine, their own 'god' telling them he's not a god, and together with a person who's supposed to be saint reducing everything their faith and livelihood stood for to ash and cinders. Just to put salt in the wound, the Emperor then FORCES them to kneel on the ashes and makes them renounce their faith and accept, well, reason, truth, and enlightenment. That would be something to see.
Maybe he realises the good that it has done for the Imperium, think if there wasn't any one singular thing for the masses to believe in, Would they still be united after all this time?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/16 13:15:04
Maybe he realises the good that it has done for the Imperium, think if there wasn't any one singular thing for the masses to believe in, Would they still be united after all this time?
Nope. He hates religion. The only reason he allows them to worship him is because he's not around. But when he's back...DIE, YOU IGNORANT CLERICS, DIE! After all, he can personally reinforce the idea that he's just Human. Somehow, I feel a great deal of attraction to the idea of burning down the entire Imperial Church. And besides, the only good the Ecclesiarchy's ever done is to keep the masses together, no progress has been made at all in ten thousand years, all attempts at creating something new being shot down even before it has a chance to work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/16 13:18:29
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Either way, armed conflict, if happening on a limited scope like that, isn't exactly a threat to the Imperium. Attempting to dismantle the Ecclesiarchy as a whole would be, as the role of faith has become way too important for the Imperium. I suppose if the Space Wolves were to try and invade, say, Ophelia VII rather than just defending their own world it would trigger a different reaction as well. Or at least it should, but ... eh, it's the Space Wolves, so who knows.
I wonder how the Ecclesiarchy would react when the old man wakes up and goes medieval on their asses. Or Ophelia VII goes the way of Monarchia, with an entire legion with the Emperor on the front accompanied by a Primarch burning everthing to ashes just to make a point. Imagine, their own 'god' telling them he's not a god, and together with a person who's supposed to be saint reducing everything their faith and livelihood stood for to ash and cinders. Just to put salt in the wound, the Emperor then FORCES them to kneel on the ashes and makes them renounce their faith and accept, well, reason, truth, and enlightenment. That would be something to see.
Ironic. That would be a rather strange way of implementing "reason" and "enlightenment"
5.000 2.000
"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command, yet you still dare to oppose our will."
Either way, armed conflict, if happening on a limited scope like that, isn't exactly a threat to the Imperium. Attempting to dismantle the Ecclesiarchy as a whole would be, as the role of faith has become way too important for the Imperium. I suppose if the Space Wolves were to try and invade, say, Ophelia VII rather than just defending their own world it would trigger a different reaction as well. Or at least it should, but ... eh, it's the Space Wolves, so who knows.
I wonder how the Ecclesiarchy would react when the old man wakes up and goes medieval on their asses. Or Ophelia VII goes the way of Monarchia, with an entire legion with the Emperor on the front accompanied by a Primarch burning everthing to ashes just to make a point. Imagine, their own 'god' telling them he's not a god, and together with a person who's supposed to be saint reducing everything their faith and livelihood stood for to ash and cinders. Just to put salt in the wound, the Emperor then FORCES them to kneel on the ashes and makes them renounce their faith and accept, well, reason, truth, and enlightenment. That would be something to see.
Ironic. That would be a rather strange way of implementing "reason" and "enlightenment"
They're zealots. The fire of their faith means talking to them is as productive as talking to a rock. Therefore, fight fire with fire and shock them into disbelief, then make your point by showing off your psychic might and make them kneel and deny their faith and accept truth and enlightenment. That's only for the Sisters...everyone else in the Ecclesiarchy will die or get mind-scrubbed. The Inquisition will be placed under Imperial governance. The legions will be reconstituted, and so on...
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Maybe he realises the good that it has done for the Imperium, think if there wasn't any one singular thing for the masses to believe in, Would they still be united after all this time?
Nope. He hates religion. The only reason he allows them to worship him is because he's not around. But when he's back...DIE, YOU IGNORANT CLERICS, DIE! After all, he can personally reinforce the idea that he's just Human. Somehow, I feel a great deal of attraction to the idea of burning down the entire Imperial Church. And besides, the only good the Ecclesiarchy's ever done is to keep the masses together, no progress has been made at all in ten thousand years, all attempts at creating something new being shot down even before it has a chance to work.
I don't know, he would have to wipe out an awful lot of people and there would be an awful lot of resistance to this. Would he risk another war on the scale of the Heresy? If he does come back from Death, isn't he just going to be confirming that he is a God, you know, the whole resurrection thing happened before apparently.
Edit: Spellinz
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/16 13:32:34
Maybe he realises the good that it has done for the Imperium, think if there wasn't any one singular thing for the masses to believe in, Would they still be united after all this time?
Nope. He hates religion. The only reason he allows them to worship him is because he's not around. But when he's back...DIE, YOU IGNORANT CLERICS, DIE! After all, he can personally reinforce the idea that he's just Human. Somehow, I feel a great deal of attraction to the idea of burning down the entire Imperial Church. And besides, the only good the Ecclesiarchy's ever done is to keep the masses together, no progress has been made at all in ten thousand years, all attempts at creating something new being shot down even before it has a chance to work.
I don't know, he would have to wipe out an awful lot of people and their would be an awful lot of resistance to this. Would he risk another war on the scale of the Heresy? If he does come back from Death, isn't he just going to be confirming that he is a god, you know, the whole Resurrection thing happened before apparently.
"I'm a psyker, and the greatest one of all. I can do things you cannot. Now reconstitute the legions and get Draigo in here because I want to shoot something."
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Tadashi wrote:I wonder how the Ecclesiarchy would react when the old man wakes up and goes medieval on their asses.
About the same way as if "Jesus" would appear and launch an assault on Vatican City and the Pope. They would likely label Him a fake and denounce Him as a mockery sent by Chaos. If He truly behaves as you suggested, it would only reinforce the accusation.
Most adherents of the faith would very likely agree with this assessment, not seeing how on Holy Terra their God-Emperor could not want them to worship Him, after all the sacrifices they made. Some very few might accept the truth, but simply resort to pragmatic support for the resistance in order to preserve the Imperium. You don't just abolish a religion with this much influence over everybody's live overnight. This sort of stuff took centuries on Earth, and for the IoM it'd take millennia (due to the sheer distance between worlds).
Pilau Rice wrote:Was that during the Reign of Blood though? I guess an Eccelsiarchal 'Sorry for attacking your homeworld, we weren't quite ourselves' happened.
No, that was in 886.M41:
Spoiler:
"A quorum of Ecclesiarchy officials approach Fenris, intending to inspect and assess the Space Wolves after hearing rumours of the worship of pagan gods. Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's guns. Almost a year later, the Ecclesiarchy and three Orders of the Adepta Sororitas attempt to enter Fenrisian space in force. The resultant war lasts for three weeks before the Ecclesiarchy decides to let sleeping dogs lie and withdraws its forces." -- 5E-C:SW
Part of why I think the 6E Allies chart is gak. As if the Sisters would forget this so easily. And that's aside from the SW generally qualifying as a bunch of rebellious mutant heretics in the first place.
During the Age of Apostasy, Fenris was attacked by the Segmentum Pacificus Navy and a few million Guardsmen under orders of the Apostate Cardinal Bucharis. But hey, it's the Space Wolves, so the entire force, fighting on and above Fenris for over a year, has of course no chance against them. Nevermind that not even one Space Marine warship is supposed to be a match for a Navy vessel of the same category.
Pilau Rice wrote:I don't know, he would have to wipe out an awful lot of people and there would be an awful lot of resistance to this. Would he risk another war on the scale of the Heresy? If he does come back from Death, isn't he just going to be confirming that he is a God, you know, the whole resurrection thing happened before apparently.
Agreed. The Emperor is no idiot, and He knows a suitable tool when He sees it, just like with His Space Marine project. He might try to abolish religion once the Imperium is stable again and secured against outside aggression. Then He might begin to implement reforms. Slowly and carefully. Probably by first shifting the meaning of "divinity" away from the man to the cause.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/16 13:40:09
Pilau Rice wrote:Was that during the Reign of Blood though? I guess an Eccelsiarchal 'Sorry for attacking your homeworld, we weren't quite ourselves' happened.
No, that was in 886.M41:
Spoiler:
"A quorum of Ecclesiarchy officials approach Fenris, intending to inspect and assess the Space Wolves after hearing rumours of the worship of pagan gods. Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's guns. Almost a year later, the Ecclesiarchy and three Orders of the Adepta Sororitas attempt to enter Fenrisian space in force. The resultant war lasts for three weeks before the Ecclesiarchy decides to let sleeping dogs lie and withdraws its forces." -- 5E-C:SW
Lynata wrote:Agreed. The Emperor is no idiot, and He knows a suitable tool when He sees it, just like with His Space Marine project. He might try to abolish religion once the Imperium is stable again and secured against outside aggression. Then He might begin to implement reforms. Slowly and carefully. Probably by first shifting the meaning of "divinity" away from the man to the cause.
How does that work exactly? If he tolerates it, won't it just strengthen it in the long run? And I'm pretty sure the Imperium won't last for much longer unless some real progress is made and done fast.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Lynata wrote:Agreed. The Emperor is no idiot, and He knows a suitable tool when He sees it, just like with His Space Marine project. He might try to abolish religion once the Imperium is stable again and secured against outside aggression. Then He might begin to implement reforms. Slowly and carefully. Probably by first shifting the meaning of "divinity" away from the man to the cause.
How does that work exactly? If he tolerates it, won't it just strengthen it in the long run? And I'm pretty sure the Imperium won't last for much longer unless some real progress is made and done fast.
I wouldn't say so, he could ween the people off of it, he's going to outlive every body, he has forever to do it.
Faith is the one thing holding the Imperium together.
Lynata wrote:Agreed. The Emperor is no idiot, and He knows a suitable tool when He sees it, just like with His Space Marine project. He might try to abolish religion once the Imperium is stable again and secured against outside aggression. Then He might begin to implement reforms. Slowly and carefully. Probably by first shifting the meaning of "divinity" away from the man to the cause.
How does that work exactly? If he tolerates it, won't it just strengthen it in the long run? And I'm pretty sure the Imperium won't last for much longer unless some real progress is made and done fast.
I wouldn't say so, he could ween the people off of it, he's going to outlive every body, he has forever to do it.
Faith is the one thing holding the Imperium together.
That might work...but does he have the time? The Ecclesiarchy's mind set is completely opposed to any progress of any kind, and I doubt the Imperium can last without drastic changes for much longer.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Tadashi wrote:How does that work exactly? If he tolerates it, won't it just strengthen it in the long run? And I'm pretty sure the Imperium won't last for much longer unless some real progress is made and done fast.
Well, what sort of progress do you hope to achieve with instant abolishment of religion? I'm not a fan of religion in real life, but for 40k, it seems way too ingrained and too important for 99.999% of the Imperial population than to just throw it away overnight. All you'd accomplish would be another civil war.
... *looks at avatar* ... waaaaiiit a second...
Anyways, as for tolerance strengthening it - I don't think this has to be the case, necessarily. It cannot become much stronger than it already is in the first place, as people grow up with the Emperor being a god constituting a "known fact". Also, by embracing the faith, this gives the Emperor the ability to steer and manipulate it for His own motives, including the possibility of weakening its hold on Mankind. With a soft touch, and over the course of millennia. In a theoretical M45, if the Imperium still exists, what people regard as "holy" might be no different than what the supposedly secular Space Marines already do.
I can accept that...but my point is, the Imperium doesn't have much time. The question is, can the Emperor, if he returns, change the Imperium sufficiently to whether all the threats facing the Imperium. Cadia is overrun, the Imperium is riddled with Chaos Cults, Tyranid Hive Fleets are closing in on the galaxy, Orks are starting to reach a threat level not seen since Ullanor, the Tau are encroaching on Imperial Space, Necrons are awakening. Ca he do it quickly enough?
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Where ? 
5.000 
