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I bust out my Sons of AnOrky against Will's Chaos Termiestar (Fateweaver with Terminators, Lord and Sorcerer).

This is a pretty crazy example of the way the game now plays. You can hear how frustrated I get going up against units with a 2+ reroll. There are a lot of ways to do this now and it is definitely something you want to prepare yourself for.

Enjoy!

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/07/15/40k-video-bat-rep-sons-of-anorky-vs-chaos-termiestar-1500pts/

Great game fellas I loved the shift in power throughout!

Will all those deathstar armies please sit down....because the necron air force is here.

Wow, nasty combo! 2+/4++ re-rollable Chaos Terminators?! I can't believe GW didn't FAQ that.

Had the Ork deathstar gone after the chaos Death Star to begin with, the Orks may have been in a better position to win the game. Good to see Nobz Bikers making a comeback. I'm also starting and Ork army. They will make a great ally for my Tau army.

Hard fought draw. Thanks for sharing!

Glad you guys liked it! I got lucky knocking Fatewaver out or I would have gotten beaten quite soundly.

And yeah, we are having a bit of trouble finding a way to build a list that can fight Air Cav and assault Deathstars.

Air Cav Crons are going to be so hard to fight, I see that army being even more annoying that the reroll everything Harliestars and Termiestars.

You guys have any ideas?

Divination IG Blobs with Rune Priests might be able to do both, but it would take a carefully built Deathstar.

For air cav crons..haven't fought it personally but I would assume mass little fire power and moving as fast as possible yourself to get behind them. They are very limited by the forced movement and with so many on the table they have to look out for each other. Play the objective, flyers don't score and there probably aren't alot of troops hiding inside them (depending on point limit). The troops have to actually come out to capture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you guys seem to run alot of deathstars at frontline...

Reecius wrote:And yeah, we are having a bit of trouble finding a way to build a list that can fight Air Cav and assault Deathstars.

You guys have any ideas?

I think the real question is this, which is more dominant Air Cav or Assault Deathstars when paired against eachother? That will set the pecking order. We figure out which is more likely to win that matchup and you metagame from there.

Str5+ shooty armies seem to be pretty good vs. both. I'd build my generic lists based on massed Str5+ shooting to start, maybe a fearless blob to tie up a Deathstar for turn or two, and 1-2 flyers & a Quad gun to be dedicated to anti-flyer role. Notice I didn't even mention psychic defence! I think that's what Reecius is really aluding to...you can't "really" go allcomers right now. There's too many roles to fill. Sounds a tiny bit like balance to me. Up until either Air Cav or Deathstars can overcome lacking in defence vs. massed shooting, psychic, flyers, or deathstars.

I like it personally.

@Wererat

We were thinking that same thing. The only way to reliably beat Necron Air Force is to out-play them. Go for objectives (although in Big Guns Never Tire the Doom Scythes are scoring).

The thing is though, I see that being the least fun game. You sit there and hunker down, waiting for last turn to kill their troops, and they fly around shooting you all game while you do little to nothing back (and remember, they're AV11, small arms can't hurt them). You basically sit there and get shot for 5 turns, and then try and kill their MSU scoring units.

I don't imagine that will be very fun for either player.

And yeah, we do play a lot of Deathstars as so far, one of those Deathstars beats an entire "normal" army be itself. Kind of stupid, really.

At one point, my Nob Bikers were in HtH with Frankie's ENTIRE Nurgle CSM army (which won multiple tournament sin 5th ed and is a "balanced" list).....and won. That's the game we're playing now.

What we're finding in our test games is that the Deathstars clash turn 2 or 3, one wins, and what's left of that unit destroys the rest of the other guy's army. We usually call the game after we see which Deathstar wins as the game is a wrap at that point.

You can play to objectives and run away from the Deathstar with a "normal" army (although against the faster ones like Nob Bikers, that's hard to do), but again, it just isn't fun. I don't know why GW made the game this way this edition, but we're having trouble finding anyway to play the game other than going to an extreme: Deathstar, Air Force, Psyker Spam, MSU Vehicle Spam. The rules just give them such an overwhelming advantage that it is seriously difficult to combat it with the kind of army most people use.

If you guys have experience beating the above lists consistently with a normal, balanced army, please, by all means let us know. Maybe we're missing something.

I would prefer to use a list like my Footdar which was very balanced, It's just that I would rather actually fight my opponent than run and hide and wait for objective grabs, which is why I choose to play some hammer units and go for all or nothing combats that decide the game.

The upside to this though, ahaha, is that the game's played this way are REALLY fast. Once the Deathstar combat is decided, the game's over!

@Painnen

Yeah, you need a LOT of str5+ to have any chance of hurting Flyers. Even then, only 1/36 shots will actually do anything to the Flyer (1/6 to hit, 1/6 to Glance). It's really frustrating.

And when you consider the average Necron Air Force list will have 8 Fliers at 1500pts, you would need an average of 864 strength 5 shots to down them all, and that is assuming that they didn't have a save of any kind (which is obviously not going to happen). Obviously, that is an absurdly high amount of shots, not something anything outside of Eldar can even consider putting out.

It's pretty insane when you think about it.

To get past the reroll 2+ Deathstars with pure Firepower takes a comparable amount of force. It's literally impossible for many armies to actually destroy them outside of insane luck.

That's why the game is seriously going to come down to these crazy lists. The rules create the situation. Sure, you can take a regular Mechanized Marine list like you see in the color section of the book, but a single Deathstar will crush you.

We literally have had situations where Eldrad and Karandras (just the two of them) walk through 30 Boy Ork squads by themselves, killing the entire unit, without taking a single wound. It's crazy.

I think you can build an all comers list at 1500, but the problem is that an extreme list will overwhelm your ability to deal with that one type of thing. Let's use the Necron Air Force for example. Say you have a Quad Gun, and even a unit of Hydras. You have better AA than 90% of lists we'll see right now.

So, 2/3 of the Crons come in turn 2, and your quad gun drops one of them with a lucky shot, then, the remaining 4 flyers focus fire the quad gun and Hydras to death.

You have to reserve your hydras hoping they come on AFTER the flyers of they'll never shoot unless you can somehow hide them.

And, Hydras aren't that hot against anything else.

So even if you bring some AA, which would be more than adequate against the single Flyer lists, you will get steam rolled by the extreme Air Force list and the points spent on things like Hydras actually make you weaker against other lists.

It's tough. I think what we will see at first is the extreme lists and just hope you don't pull the scissor to your rock.

I hope I'm wrong, though. I would love to see balanced lists being the really top choice, but the rules have created such inequities between units that I don't see that happening. Time will tell of course, but that's where we are right now.

Reecius wrote:Glad you guys liked it! I got lucky knocking Fatewaver out or I would have gotten beaten quite soundly.

And yeah, we are having a bit of trouble finding a way to build a list that can fight Air Cav and assault Deathstars.

Air Cav Crons are going to be so hard to fight, I see that army being even more annoying that the reroll everything Harliestars and Termiestars.

You guys have any ideas?

Divination IG Blobs with Rune Priests might be able to do both, but it would take a carefully built Deathstar.

I actually lost Fateweaver also in a game against nids. But he had to fire everything at it - including 2 squads of 20 devgants - and then assaulted him with almost his entire army after FW got grounded. And stupid me, I forgot to challenge his tyrant so that no one else could attack Big Bird. Lol. But a flying Fateweaver is just nuts.

BTW, how did you play FMC's? I think strictly by RAW, after he is grounded, you are still hitting him with shooting on 6's because Grounded only removes the restriction for being assaulted and jink cover saves. However, it appears that many thinks that Grounded also removes the Hard to Hit rule (at least that's probably what the intention is).

I agree that 6th edition is now more about extremes. I'm not sure if there is any army anymore that can handle all the extremes. Now, it's become more and more of a rock-papers-scissors game. Honestly, I don't really have an answer at the moment for an army that can deal with the 2 extremes, except with a brutal amount of Volume-of-fire/attacks. Maybe 220+ ork boys? Just fill up the map with boyz so that flyers can't even maneuver and overwhelm deathstars with numbers and Fearless units that even they will have a hard time handling. Or another flyer army. In a flyer-vs-flyer dogfight, the one going second has the advantage.

A balanced Necron list w/ wraiths, scarabs, spyders, necron warrior in night scythe, doom scythe, and supped up overlord is in a good position against death star and flyers lists. It has the tools to handle most situations.

IE what I were thinking lately:

HQ - Overlord - Warscythe - Semp. Weave - MSS - Phase Shifter - ccb. 255 [Warlord]
.......- Cryptek - Harbringer of Destruction - Heldritch Lance - Solar Pulse. 55
HQ - Destroyer Lord - Sempiternal Weave - Mind Shackle Scarabs. 160 [with Wraiths]
TR - 5x Warriors - Nightscythe. 165
TR - 5x Warriors - Nightscythe. 165
TR - 5x Warriors - Nightscythe. 165
TR - 5x Warriors - Nightscythe. 165
FA - 5x Canoptek Wraiths - 3x Whip Coils. 205
FA - 10x Canoptek Scarab Warms. 150
HV - Doomscythe. 175
HV - Doomscythe. 175
HV - 3x Canoptek Spyders - 1x Gloom Prism. 165
Tot. 2000

@jy2

That is an interesting interpretation of the FMC rule, and I hope that doesn't bear fruit as it is a tad ridiculous! But, there are so many holes in this rule-set that it wouldn't surprise me.

Yeah, FW is so much more powerful than he was, it is crazy. All they had to do was FAQ Fateweavers aura to not work on CSM and it wouldn't have been a big deal, but he is UBER now. Plus he's great for taking down other Flyers too, which makes him even more of a utility.

The game is a game of extremes now, which is a bummer because that reduces skill.

@sabrx & Toban

I think Crons are the best equipped to deal with all comers at this point in time, but that doesn't help other armies out much, does it?

With Flyers as transports that are amazingly good for their points, and effective Tarpits, hammer Assault units and the ability to kill any vehicle with their basic troops, they have a lot of advantages that other books don't.

I think that list is excellent and will be one of those we see performing well at tournaments. Too bad for everyone else that doesn't have those options...at least not yet.

I'm not completly sold on it because of the Gloom Prism and the Whip Coils on Wraitsh.

Respectively they would not alwais be as useful as in the past. Spyders positions wouldn't necessarily be correct and with the run vs low ap = low int cc weapons even the Whip Coils could eventually be dropped.

Another list that I'm tooling lately, that do not really rely on assault but that could potentially work well is a modified Venom Spam + Razorwings + Allied Eldrad/Arlies.

Another setup that could potentially put out a monstrous rate of decent fire (ST6, poisoned), set up potentially one of the best Deathstars available now a days and still field a lot of high ST/ap2 average to long range weapons. Almost all deployed with fast moving "2x HP ea" MSU troop units.

Just forget Helions + Sathonix, Beastmasters etc.. old stuff..

Unfortunately I'm not yet an Orks lover and I can't say to really know their Codex in deep details but I'm thinking about a lot of setups for them too that could actually work pretty well I guess.

In conclusion, the bigger shocking thing is that apart Necrons and somehow Dark Eldars all the usual and REGULAR tournament top tier armies like BA - SW - GK - eventually even IG had been seriously hitted in their usual playstyle and need now a solid re-interpretation.

This fit quitely well the political of many armies per client that GW push so hard from a lot of years.

Unfortunately I'm still a my army of mine trusty lover and I'm suffering this transition quite a bit.

For sure I will build up the Necron list posted above but in the same time I will spend a big part of my time trying to let SW works again.. not an easy task I admit.

Reecius wrote:@Wererat

We were thinking that same thing. The only way to reliably beat Necron Air Force is to out-play them. Go for objectives (although in Big Guns Never Tire the Doom Scythes are scoring).

Scoring Doom Scythes are pretty irrelevant, since you don't measure from the base. Good luck actually claiming any objective that isn't at the top of a multi-story ruin!

Reecius wrote:At one point, my Nob Bikers were in HtH with Frankie's ENTIRE Nurgle CSM army (which won multiple tournament sin 5th ed and is a "balanced" list).....and won. That's the game we're playing now.

What happens if those Nob Bikers get shot by a Manticore? What happens against massed Tank Shock? What happens against a Psyker Battle Squad, Telepathy psyker, or (worse yet) both? What happens if someone casts Enfeeble on them? What happens if someone just feeds them a few suicide squads and focuses fire with the rest of their army? Nob Bikers are half as tough against small arms as they used to be...

There are lots of counters to Nob Bikers, even if they did get buffed a bit. Further, the GW designers recently said that the way most people are playing Characters is wrong and that entire units of characters don't get Look Out Sir-- the "character" designation in the back of the book is only for when those models are solo or are leading normal units! Once that makes it into an FAQ, Nob Bikers are in big trouble.

All the deathstars are like this. The Eldar reroll 2+ Deathstar is weak to Barrage weapons, ignores cover weapons, psychic defense, several enemy psychic powers, etc. People just need to be aware of more potential threats and have the counters to deal with them. All-comers lists will survive.

Reecius wrote:I think you can build an all comers list at 1500, but the problem is that an extreme list will overwhelm your ability to deal with that one type of thing. Let's use the Necron Air Force for example. Say you have a Quad Gun, and even a unit of Hydras. You have better AA than 90% of lists we'll see right now.

So, 2/3 of the Crons come in turn 2, and your quad gun drops one of them with a lucky shot, then, the remaining 4 flyers focus fire the quad gun and Hydras to death.

Interesting example. But let's say that you have a quad gun on a Bastion instead of an Aegis defense line. Now, instead of being a battlefield debris quad-gun that can be targeted independently, it's a building quad-gun that you have to damage AV14 to destroy. The only thing the Necrons have that can kill it outside of CC is their Doom Scythes, but the quad-gun gets to shoot the Doom Scythes before they can attack it, and with the Bastion's AV14 the Death Rays only even penetrate (glances do basically nothing) a third of the time! They better hope they get multiple Doom Scythes in on one turn and can overwhelm you... but to make matters worse, instead of spending points on an unreliable and vulnerable Hydra squadron, you picked up a Master of the Fleet, so suddenly the Necrons are rolling Reserves on a 4+.

All of a sudden it's the Necrons who are running scared! They better hope their maximum three Doom Scythes can beat your Reserves disruption, your Interceptor rolls, your Bastion's AV14, and potentially your own flyers, or else they might find themselves in a pickle!

If they didn't bring Doom Scythes and took Annihilation Barges instead, they really have no answer to your defenses... but maybe they invested in Scarabs to attempt to swarm your Bastion and corrode its armor, making it vulnerable to fire from their Barges and Night Scythes? If so, do you have units that can block the Scarabs and prevent them from reaching the Bastion in time? Maybe they plan on throwing tons of Gauss at the bastion to kill the guys inside with wounds taken from glancing hits... but now their vulnerable troops are on the table, and you have guys ready to recrew your Bastion... but now you have fewer models screening to defend against those Scarabs...

6th Edition has all kinds of awesome interactions and metagame decisions to consider in listbuilding. It's premature to declare that the game is broken before the strengths and weaknesses of different builds have even been fully explored. I, for one, think that balanced lists will win out. I'm not sure if we'll see the upcoming Golden Throne GT get taken by a deathstar list or a balanced one, but I have faith that, over time, the 6th edition metagame will strongly favor balanced all-comers armies.

@Toban

Yeah, the transition will be difficult for all of us! Haha, unlearning what you worked hard to learn is no easy task. I think Wolves are still very powerful, particularly when combined with IG, although they don't need to do that to build a powerful list.

@Fettrerkey

Some really good points, and some things I had not considered.

Measuring from the Hull of a Flyer does mean that it is amoot point that it is a scoring unit, hahaha, I had not even thought of that. That is an excellent point.

And yes, the Bastion is a much better investment for that match-up. It is quite useful in general, but I wonder how many players will bring them? As you said, a Doom Scythe has a 1/3 chance of damaging it, and then, a 5/6 chance of taking out the weapon. Those aren't at all bad odds, really.

WIth 2 (the average of 3 coming in on turn 2) you have a 5/9 chance of taking that gun out. Not bad at all.

And the Quad Gun isn't a sure bet to down a Doom Scythe the turn it comes in, either. You should average 2 HP, one of which will be a pen, so not bad odds there either.

And not everyone can take the IG command squad with the OoF. I think a much more useful ally for general purposes is someone who provides psyker defense.

As you pointed out, psychic powers can be devastating now. That is why I am playing me Sons of AnOrky with Eldar allies. A Farseer shuts down a lot of the powers you which you pointed out hurt them so much. It REALLY beefs up the unit.

Tank Shocking is no big deal to Nobs now, they just rally the next turn if they do break.

Manticores are also a problem, but against them they will get one turn to shoot you before you charge. If you get within their minimum 24" range of the Manticores to fire indirectly (easy to do in most cases), they are going to bounce of the T6 Warboss as they no longer ignore wound allocation.

The Harliestar isn't really weak to Barrage. If you keep them in cover they have a 2+ reroll cover save, not much will get through that. If you have a big flamer unit, like Burna Boyz, and you can get around the lead characters, then yeah, they can be beaten, but that all comes down to who plays better and the odds are stacked against most of those types of units.

Anyway, I am splitting hairs a bit.

I really like your point of view, it is good to stay positive. And you are right, you now have to plan to make a list that has a lot of tools to be a true take all comers list. My issue is just that there are fundamental problems in the core game mechanics that give enormous mathematical advantages to certain types of units and it's a bummer.

As for LOS! not being played right well then, hahahaha, they should have written the rule better! If they do FAQ it, then yes, Paladins and Nob Bikers will take a kick to the gonads, but you know what? Good. I hope they do make that change. It's not fun to have your army get beaten by a single unit.

Reecius wrote:And yes, the Bastion is a much better investment for that match-up. It is quite useful in general, but I wonder how many players will bring them? As you said, a Doom Scythe has a 1/3 chance of damaging it, and then, a 5/6 chance of taking out the weapon. Those aren't at all bad odds, really.

Not quite-- weapon destroyed results are randomized across all your weapons now. The same goes for emplaced guns on buildings, and the Bastion has four heavy bolters in addition to its quadgun. So unless you actually kill the bastion, there's only a 1/5 chance to kill the quad gun on a result that removes weapons, and the rest of the time you take a mere heavy bolter. Not so hot!

Reecius wrote:And the Quad Gun isn't a sure bet to down a Doom Scythe the turn it comes in, either. You should average 2 HP, one of which will be a pen, so not bad odds there either.

That's true, but this can be buffed (a gunner with Tank Hunters is a nice addition, especially if you think you'll be going up against multiple AV12 flyers), and even if you don't kill the thing you may force it to Evade. If you're really feeling evil, put a Fire Dragon Exarch in the bastion-- he fires the quad-gun at BS5 and has Crack Shot and Tank Hunters, making the weapon totally crazy against practically any flyer out there!

Reecius wrote:And not everyone can take the IG command squad with the OoF. I think a much more useful ally for general purposes is someone who provides psyker defense.

Definitely a good point. I was just using the example of IG because that's what you were talking about in your original example. It'll be interesting to see what the metagame evolves to look like, but I agree that it seems psyker defense will be a more all-comers option. I certainly know that I intend to ally in a Farseer or Rune Priest (haven't decided which yet) for my army in the Golden Throne GT, and I wouldn't plan on taking any army that relies on psyker combos to work-- whether that's psychic powers that you need to pull off to strengthen your units or powers you need in order to stop certain enemy units, I just don't think they'll be reliable enough to be a core part of your plan in an environment with allied psychic defense.

Reecius wrote:As you pointed out, psychic powers can be devastating now. That is why I am playing me Sons of AnOrky with Eldar allies. A Farseer shuts down a lot of the powers you which you pointed out hurt them so much. It REALLY beefs up the unit.

For sure. Even for armies where the Farseer can't buff their units directly, Runes of Warding are a good way to deal with a lot of the powerful psychic combos and craziness that can otherwise endanger big units. I expect to see a lot of people running allied Farseers at the Golden Throne. On the other hand, keep in mind that Farseers are actually not that good of a psychic defense against Eldar Psykers with Runes of Witnessing. Leadership 10 has a fairly good chance of passing a 4d6 drop highest test, I believe over 50%, and the upside of inflicting Perils is largely mitigated by the Farseer's 3+ Ghosthelm save. This leads to an interesting metagame consideration where Rune Priests are better psychic defenders than Farseers against other upgraded Farseers, while Farseers are better psychic defenders against almost everyone else.

Reecius wrote:Tank Shocking is no big deal to Nobs now, they just rally the next turn if they do break.

I believe a unit that is already falling back still fails all morale checks, so once you get them on the run you can Tank Shock them again (if possible) to force them back another 3d6, then shoot to force them back yet another 3d6 if you can get 25% of the unit down. That could easily take a unit off the field by itself if you pull off all three- 9d6" averages 31.5," and even if you only get two of those you'll send 'em back 21" on average-- pretty rough. I agree Tank Shock on its own is not an automatic counter anymore, but I'm fine with that-- losing 500 point units to 35 point Rhinos chasing them off the board always stung a little back in 5th edition, and at least this way you have to have follow-through.

Reecius wrote:Manticores are also a problem, but against them they will get one turn to shoot you before you charge. If you get within their minimum 24" range of the Manticores to fire indirectly (easy to do in most cases), they are going to bounce of the T6 Warboss as they no longer ignore wound allocation.

I believe Barrage weapons are always resolved from the center hole, regardless of whether they fired indirectly or not. This is a silly rule on GW's part because it makes Barrages crazy, but when it comes to fighting Nob Bikers I'm not complaining!

Reecius wrote:The Harliestar isn't really weak to Barrage. If you keep them in cover they have a 2+ reroll cover save, not much will get through that. If you have a big flamer unit, like Burna Boyz, and you can get around the lead characters, then yeah, they can be beaten, but that all comes down to who plays better and the odds are stacked against most of those types of units.

I think Barrages still determine cover from the center hole, which should deny cover in lots of cases. Even failing that, my Space Marine army now fields a Whirlwind in 6th edition. Imperial Guard can take the Colossus Siege Mortar, which just got crazy-- it's now the best anti-MEQ sniper weapon in the game for some reason!

Ignores Cover weapons are rough for Harlequins, especially when they're barrages to boot-- sure, the Harlequins get a 5++ reroll against them (assuming Fortune went off), but even if you only do two or three wounds, it's likely they'll fail at least one save, and with the center hole on the Shadowseer from any hit, that 2+ cover may not last long!

Reecius wrote:Anyway, I am splitting hairs a bit.

I really like your point of view, it is good to stay positive. And you are right, you now have to plan to make a list that has a lot of tools to be a true take all comers list. My issue is just that there are fundamental problems in the core game mechanics that give enormous mathematical advantages to certain types of units and it's a bummer.

I'm not sure that these things are really as big issues as you would suggest, but I definitely do prefer to take an optimistic view. It may be that you're right and that we'll be seeing Nob Bikerz at the top of the Golden Throne GT and the Bay Area Open, but I personally doubt it. In any case, it's not too long before we find out-- and I for one can't wait.

Reecius wrote:As for LOS! not being played right well then, hahahaha, they should have written the rule better! If they do FAQ it, then yes, Paladins and Nob Bikers will take a kick to the gonads, but you know what? Good. I hope they do make that change. It's not fun to have your army get beaten by a single unit.

Haha yeah, for real man! Obviously we won't know until the rulebook FAQ comes out, but I do think that's a light of hope in what's otherwise a fairly confusing picture. I like 6th edition overall, but I think Look Out, Sir! is a pretty jacked up rule in its current implementation, at least for multi-character madness units.

Fetterkey wrote:

Reecius wrote:And yes, the Bastion is a much better investment for that match-up. It is quite useful in general, but I wonder how many players will bring them? As you said, a Doom Scythe has a 1/3 chance of damaging it, and then, a 5/6 chance of taking out the weapon. Those aren't at all bad odds, really.

Not quite-- weapon destroyed results are randomized across all your weapons now. The same goes for emplaced guns on buildings, and the Bastion has four heavy bolters in addition to its quadgun. So unless you actually kill the bastion, there's only a 1/5 chance to kill the quad gun on a result that removes weapons, and the rest of the time you take a mere heavy bolter. Not so hot!

It is my understanding that units on top of a battlement can be targeted and shot at. So I can shoot at your gun emplacement (which, BTW, is a model with T7, 2W, 3+ who can also get cover from the battlement) on the battlement of a bastion, but if I shoot at bastion itself and causes a weapon-destroyed result, then you randomize.

Thanks. Enjoyed that and the reasonably steady camera. And the captions.

jy2 wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

Reecius wrote:And yes, the Bastion is a much better investment for that match-up. It is quite useful in general, but I wonder how many players will bring them? As you said, a Doom Scythe has a 1/3 chance of damaging it, and then, a 5/6 chance of taking out the weapon. Those aren't at all bad odds, really.

Not quite-- weapon destroyed results are randomized across all your weapons now. The same goes for emplaced guns on buildings, and the Bastion has four heavy bolters in addition to its quadgun. So unless you actually kill the bastion, there's only a 1/5 chance to kill the quad gun on a result that removes weapons, and the rest of the time you take a mere heavy bolter. Not so hot!

It is my understanding that units on top of a battlement can be targeted and shot at. So I can shoot at your gun emplacement (which, BTW, is a model with T7, 2W, 3+ who can also get cover from the battlement) on the battlement of a bastion, but if I shoot at bastion itself and causes a weapon-destroyed result, then you randomize.

Gun emplacements are only models with T7 W2 3+ if they are battlefield debris. Gun emplacements on buildings use different rules and can't be targeted separately. They are also fired from inside the bastion rather than on top.

Ah good... looks like death stars are back.

Paladins weren't hard enough to beat already...

Reecius, please, when you'll find the time may you'll post the Orkish deathstar list? Just Curious.

@Celtic Strike

There are lots of counters to them, honestly. And now, you can take one of your own!

@Fetterkey

Ah, good catch on the Bastion, i forgot about the heavy bolters.

And wowzers, you're right. A barrage weapon can ALWAYS fire indirectly, even within it's minimum distance......doh! GW, wtf?! That is so stupid.

And yeah, sniping indirect weapons are so stupid. Why is a howitzer more precise than a sniper rifle.....so dumb.

Well, we'll see what happens, hahaha, it will be interesting to say the least!

@Toban


Orks 1500pts
Unit Description Size Cost
HQ
Warboss Attack Squig, Bike, Pole, Klaw 1 155
Ghaz 1 225
Farseer Jetbike, Doom, Fortune, Runes of Warding, Spear 1 158

Troops
Nob Bikers Painboy, WAAGH!! Banner, Cybork, Klaw x 2, B.Choppa x2 10 605
Grots 11 40
Jet Bikes S.Cannon 6 76
Boyz Nob, Klaw, Eavy Armor, B.Shoota x 3 30 240

Elites

Fast Attack

Heavy Support

Fortification

Totals 60 1499

that is what I am running now, but I am still fine tuning it quite a bit.

What's the farseer for? Just dooming things and psy-def?

They are desperate as well, so stay out of 6".

The Farseer makes the list, he is SOOOOOO good.

Doom works for the Orks, which is bonkers. He also gives my psyker defense which my army is really weak against. Plus, he and the bikes run around being a pain in the butt. I just played Will's Chaos Termiestar again and they won me the game, killing his last scoring unit and shutting Airhman down (who is beastly).

God damn, Fateweaver is sooo good it's crazy, now. If you can;t knock him out of the sky, he is the most annoying thing ever, more so even than before! haha

Here's my new list, been working better than the previous one.


Orks 1500pts
Unit Description Size Cost
HQ
Ghaz 1 225
Warboss Bike, Klaw, Pole, Cybork, Squig 1 155
Farseer Jetbike, Doom, Runes of Warding 1 125

Troops
Nob Bikers Klaw x 2, Uge Choppa x 2, Pain Boy, Banner 10 605
Trukk Boyz Nob, Klaw, Eavy Armor, Trukk 11 140
Shoota Boyz 24 144
Grots 11 40
Jetbikes 3 66

Elites

Fast Attack

Heavy Support

Fortification

Totals 62 1500