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Been hearing lots of talk, no rumors, about 40k progression. The Emperor rising, Orks killing everyone, Tyrannids eating everyone, Necrons vaporizing everyone, new Chaos God(s) - the Emperor being one depending on how you look at it. A second Horus Heresy.. without Horus, Black Crusades beating (not really-more like utterly annihilating) Cadia, Tau... doing something, Eldar, extinction?

Anyway, those are some things that come to mind when I oversee the conversations about progression. Why do you want progression? Why don't you? Discuss.

DemetriDominov wrote:Been hearing lots of talk, no rumors, about 40k progression. The Emperor rising, Orks killing everyone, Tyrannids eating everyone, Necrons vaporizing everyone, new Chaos God(s) - the Emperor being one depending on how you look at it. A second Horus Heresy.. without Horus, Black Crusades beating (not really-more like utterly annihilating) Cadia, Tau... doing something, Eldar, extinction?

Anyway, those are some things that come to mind when I oversee the conversations about progression. Why do you want progression? Why don't you? Discuss.

I wouldn't mind a bit a progression, like successive stories about very specific theater of wars. Mind boggling progression, like the Emperor dying, would have to be done in such a careful and planned out way as to not ending up set in a corner, that I don't think that's a good idea.

Progression for the In-Codex characters could be cool, like official advances in fluff in every subsequent codeci (sp?). Or maybe supplements that revolved around fluff advances, that are actually relevent to the core setting? IA already did this somewhat, the rumours of them going full official supplement providers might mean this will step up?

I want them to advance the fluff because they've set the current fluff up as a precipice. We're not at the final destination, all the pieces are being put into place for bigger and better things.

The current fluff is the cliffhanger in a season finale of a tv show, and I'm eagerly awaiting the next season.

Playing devil's advocate here, but "the next season" may be the Emperor rising and attempting to restart his Great Crusade once and for all, and after that.... somebody wins and the 40k universe lays as stagnant as most people believe it does now. So then it kinda boils down to how much progression we really want. Do we want the play the Endgame? Leave it as it is, perhaps with some small changes as we've seen over the years as more lore is added, (world campaigns, BL, DOW and SM, ect.) or somewhere in-between?

You can't really keep adding new lore without it reaching a breaking point where something new has to happen. Eventually you'll either start stepping on the toes of established fluff or it will just get ridiculous that you have every tiny event in the galaxy fleshed out but no new information on the big stuff.

They've crafted a world where I, and I'm sure many other people, want to know what happens next. I don't care if it comes through rulebooks or codexes, or from Black Library books.

How far will the 13th Black Crusade get?
What's Ghazkgull doing next?
Is Eldrad alive in some form or another?
Will the Imperium start to fracture under its own weight and split into different factions?

These are questions that are basically written into the fluff, and not answering any of them is a waste of the talent that's come before and the rich setting they've made.

DemetriDominov wrote:Playing devil's advocate here, but "the next season" may be the Emperor rising and attempting to restart his Great Crusade once and for all, and after that.... somebody wins and the 40k universe lays as stagnant as most people believe it does now. So then it kinda boils down to how much progression we really want. Do we want the play the Endgame? Leave it as it is, perhaps with some small changes as we've seen over the years as more lore is added, (world campaigns, BL, DOW and SM, ect.) or somewhere in-between?

I doubt we're really close to the Endgame. Don't Nids need to actually get to Terra, and then Russ and the Lion and all the primarchs have a nice family reunion? The next season could be some huge Chaos/Imperium conflict (as usual) with the cliffhanger being, just a suggestion, the reapperance of one of the Primarchs. That alone could have some profound implication...

I mean, this could be a REAL epic setting/story, like A Song of Fire and Ice (I know, it won't ), which means theres no end to the possible fillers of personnal and regional conflicts set against the background of the larger conflict between the forces of Fire and the Others. As long as it's well written and well developped.

MandalorynOranj wrote:I want them to advance the fluff because they've set the current fluff up as a precipice. We're not at the final destination, all the pieces are being put into place for bigger and better things.

The current fluff is the cliffhanger in a season finale of a tv show, and I'm eagerly awaiting the next season.

Me too, I really want the emperor to be reborn via "star child". But it doesn't seem like it is ever going to happen because gw is too scared to upset the die hard "its a setting for my board games" people.

Warhammer 40K is a setting, not a linear story, so no it shouldn't advance. That being said I would like to see the timeline fixed so that way everything isn't jammed into the last 10 years of the setting (Black Crusade XIII, two major hive fleets arriving, another Tau expansion all at once just seems like too much). Think of the timeline like a setting with lots of different authors writing stories set in there. Individual stories can progress beyond the present in the setting, but the setting as a whole is static.

Still, whenever you come up with an event, don't just jam it into the last 10 years of the timeline, you have another 9,910 years you can place it in.

As much as I'd like to see some changes (The Big E dieing or being reborn, can't make up my mind) it just never will.

We will see factions gaining ground and then losing it again and again as GW see's fit. Massive game changes will never happen because it will bring the franchise to a close. We may see a successful black crusade thats take down Cadia and then the IOM take it back or a Tyranid hive hurtle toward terra but these will just be story lines tucked into the existing lore. GW have a working model that has a massive following worldwide, they will not upset that balance with game changes. Thats a bit like Apple stops making phones and going into the grocery market. It wouldnt make sense.

If the emporer was reborn we'd have a galactic bro fist and then they'd bitch slap the known universe. Game over. If the orks unified under one Warrrrrghh they stomp everything in site Game over. These story lines dont fit with the working franchise. Best we will get is new stories of quests for hidden relics or Chapters hunting down their lost primachs. Or maybe the DE may have a change of heart and say to themselves 'Hang on a minute, are we alright in the head?' and become monks. Or maybe the Orks might just settle down and become farmers.

Nice thought but ain't gonna happen.

I think it would need to be handled very carfuly becasue the only things that would realy class as progression would be things like a first founding chapter being destroyed or going rouge, the emperor doing something (dieing, rising,talking, whatever) or a black crusade breaking through.

a better alternative is what they do with the imperial armour books have seting specific codecices with list for and special rules for multiple armies in Like a great crusade book, an age of strief book and so on, these could have better diffrent wepons and units available that have scince be come obsolete / lost or simply diffrent lists.

but we have 10000 yeas of history to play befor the empor needs to do anything.

the curret setting just dosnt premote storys behind the games, if they want us to forge a narative, they need to encourage more than straight anhialation matches

Britain is known in Hollywood as the "what happend next" nation, we always want to see the aftermath of things and how it all played out

To be honest, I'm very much of the opinion that those clamouring for progression of 40k's timeline really haven't considered the implications. Just advancing the calendar by a century would, by itself, change nothing; the tedious narratives in each codex about how the army in question has defeated each other army in the galaxy in its signature fashion would just have slightly later dates.

Significant change - the death of the Emperor, the Primarchs returning, or Abaddon reaching Terra - on the other hand, would fundamentally change (or indeed end) the game universe. I doubt that you would would find much consensus among players as to what changes would be for the better.

As others have already said, the advantage of a static setting is that it allows the players to forge their own narratives, which need not be crammed with universe-changing events to be memorable and involving, and which require no hand-holding from GW.

Moreover, an excellent compromise option does exist. I'd be delighted to see, for instance, an Age of Apostasy campaign, or the rumoured Forge World Heresy sourcebooks, and play out those events with 'historical' characters and scenarios.

English Assassin wrote:
Significant change - the death of the Emperor, the Primarchs returning, or Abaddon reaching Terra - on the other hand, would fundamentally change (or indeed end) the game universe. I doubt that you would would find much consensus among players as to what changes would be for the better.

As others have already said, the advantage of a static setting is that it allows the players to forge their own narratives, which need not be crammed with universe-changing events to be memorable and involving, and which require no hand-holding from GW.

Moreover, an excellent compromise option does exist. I'd be delighted to see, for instance, an Age of Apostasy campaign, or the rumoured Forge World Heresy sourcebooks, and play out those events with 'historical' characters and scenarios.

I'm in agreement. The setting of the 40k universe has been appealing to so many for so long due to epic story line, 1 stroke till midnight cliffhanger (It appeals to me at least). Yes, the way they write the story in the BRBs really makes you want to see some progression, but as English Assassin pointed out, GW would be hard pressed to write a next step that half the 40k players in the world wouldn't rage about. If the Mass Effect 3 ending taught us anything it's that the resolution is rarely as exciting or fulfilling as the rising action and climax (it also taught us that if fans complain long enough and loud enough then companies will eventually react in some manner, in Bioware's case, positively).

I don't want any massive change to the story like The Emperor getting out of his chair. I only want it to advance like 1 year so we can find out what's happens on Cadia and Armaggedon and the many other wars taking place in M41999.9999999999

MandalorynOranj wrote:You can't really keep adding new lore without it reaching a breaking point where something new has to happen. Eventually you'll either start stepping on the toes of established fluff

This has already happened quite a lot, and it is one of the reason I personally would like to see the background advance. When I got into the 40k fluff back in the eighties, the world was still building: history was being fleshed out, new species and factions were popping up, and so on. The Realm of Chaos books provided a bit of "deep background" at first and the picture was getting clearer. With the advent of the C'tan background, the Pariah gene and the psychic nulls we were starting to see the outlines of several possible futures of the 40k universe. I kept up with 40k fluff long after I quit playing 40k.

Over time several minor "retcons" happened beyond the formation of consistency in the unformed stuff of the early background. The Squats were squatted, the Star Child concept more or less disappeared and Chaos got a whole lot more involved and a WHOLE lot less chaotic (there was a time when the Imperium would happily euthanize entire fleets of Guard/Marines and sterilize entire planets if the word got out Chaos actually existed and the poor sods in question had been in contact with it). Finally the entire C'tan backstory was rewritten. I would much rather they just advanced the storyline rather than fully implement the edition cycle change carousel of one step back, one to the side and one backwards to the background itself. Too late, guess, for some of the background, but there is still time to save the rest.

I hope they advance it some, mostly because while I like where the story is at now, but I want more. I play video games for their stories, while I play the online multiplayer, i really buy and play for stories, and right now in 40k I am stuck playing the 2nd to last level. But I understand why they dont(and wont) advance. As stated, to avoid a "Mass Effect 3" scenario

now all shall bow their heads and participate in a moment of silence for the mutiliated and murdered ME3 ending...

I would like more Tyranids to arrive in the galaxy and more Necrons to arise from the Tomb Worlds, as well as perhaps Chaos getting a bit beyond the Eye of Terror (though not while overrunning Cadia, if possible).

For those of us who have played for a long time, i think it is clear that GW could very easily advance the storyline without eliminating a race.
There are so many different options for this that i won't even bother going into them all, but even a small sampling of DEITIES that could change the current fluff in huge ways and upset the stagnant fluff include:

Emprah
Starchild
Cegorach
The Eldar chick imprisoned by nurgle
a Catan that escaped the purge
The Old ones
a new chaos god
Whatever lies at the heart of the Hive Mind
Mork n Gork

and that's off the top of my head...

It can be done, it can be done well. In my opinion, the reason that it isn't done is laziness. We won't see GW advance it unless they absolutely HAVE to.

/shrug, IMHO that's why you see so many other minis games flourishing right now. 40k's gotten stagnant, lethargic under the weight of it's own success. I personally think that's one of the reasons that one of my favorite minis games, Battletech, has seen such a resurgence in my area, a plotline and rules that evolve and progress.

English Assassin wrote:To be honest, I'm very much of the opinion that those clamouring for progression of 40k's timeline really haven't considered the implications. Just advancing the calendar by a century would, by itself, change nothing; the tedious narratives in each codex about how the army in question has defeated each other army in the galaxy in its signature fashion would just have slightly later dates.

Significant change - the death of the Emperor, the Primarchs returning, or Abaddon reaching Terra - on the other hand, would fundamentally change (or indeed end) the game universe. I doubt that you would would find much consensus among players as to what changes would be for the better.

As others have already said, the advantage of a static setting is that it allows the players to forge their own narratives, which need not be crammed with universe-changing events to be memorable and involving, and which require no hand-holding from GW.

Moreover, an excellent compromise option does exist. I'd be delighted to see, for instance, an Age of Apostasy campaign, or the rumoured Forge World Heresy sourcebooks, and play out those events with 'historical' characters and scenarios.

I agree completely with you and I would like to see what GW would do if they were to create this. Maybe they were to base it around the Black Crusade breaking through or maybe if the Emperor died and the IoM is splintered into small Neonations to fight amongst themselves. But most of all I would actually like to see some of the Historical Narratives like the Armageddon Wars scenarios (I heard there was one but I'm not sure...) or a making of a way to re-enact the Sabbat Worlds or the Horus Heresy.
Now back onto topic; if GW were to further the story, they would create an expansion of the boardgame or make an entirely new one with some recognisable faces. Simple, easy and would make them millions.
And a small advance on the plotline came 2-3 years ago in the form of Space Hulk (Well I couldn't find any fluff on that anyway) but much like the Earth swapping Polar Ice Caps, it is long overdue...

MandalorynOranj wrote:I want them to advance the fluff because they've set the current fluff up as a precipice. We're not at the final destination, all the pieces are being put into place for bigger and better things.

The current fluff is the cliffhanger in a season finale of a tv show, and I'm eagerly awaiting the next season.

That's exactly why it shouldn't be advanced. It's perfect as it is, and advancing it will remove all that tension and potential from the setting.

IDK if Setting is too important, I mean there are tons of people, myself included, who have created or are creating Pre-Heresy or Heresy-Era armies. That plot line has already come and gone and been etched in stone. We all know how the Heresy Ends, who wins, who loses, but it doesn't matter, if you love the game, you make your own setting, and slice a piece of time out for yourself and friend to fight a battle in, be it the 31st or the 41st millennium.

MandalorynOranj wrote:I want them to advance the fluff because they've set the current fluff up as a precipice. We're not at the final destination, all the pieces are being put into place for bigger and better things.

The current fluff is the cliffhanger in a season finale of a tv show, and I'm eagerly awaiting the next season.

Well. I think the cliffhanger-description is pretty spot on, but the idea isn't for GW to write the season finale. The idea is for each and ever gaming group to do so.

They serve you up this cliffhanger... you paint the minis and play it out like you think it should be played out

Of course, over 25 years of 40K history, too much of it has become too hallowed for its own good in many ways. Like the "lost legions" for example. Back in the 80s, they left two blanks so people could fill it with their own. But if you walk into a gaming-store today and say your home-made-colour-scheme-marines are the Lost II Legion (instead of the descendants of the descendants of X), people will as likely scorn you for your audacity of touching the lost legions, rather than salute your creativity.

The problem isn't that 40K-verse doesn't advance. The problem is that people have become overtly reliant on GW to do it for them.

One thing I'd like to see progress is hopefully the War of Armageddon comes to a close. I know that the Orks will be upset that it will end, but if they win then the new everlasting war will take place on Terra..........

I'd like to see the Tau expand farther, and find more xeno allies. something to make them more competitive story wise.

I just wanna see Chaos make it past Cadia. I really don't understand why they would bother besieging the planet instead of just destroying it. I mean its not like Abbadon doesn't have Planet Killer to do the job, but I suppose using it on some random planet to kill off some Karskins is a better use than to get rid of the planet that is always defending against his forces.

SaintTom wrote:I just wanna see Chaos make it past Cadia. I really don't understand why they would bother besieging the planet instead of just destroying it. I mean its not like Abbadon doesn't have Planet Killer to do the job, but I suppose using it on some random planet to kill off some Karskins is a better use than to get rid of the planet that is always defending against his forces.

They did make it past Cadia. Typhus especially. The Planet Killer was able to destroy Cadia... but instead the prison colony exploded?

Abaddon: "Cadia is within range! Destroy them!"

Dark Mechanicus guy: "Your Greatness, there appears to be something wrong with the weapon... Strange... A completely different planet just exploded... in favor of the Imperials!"

Abaddon: "CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!"

Mr Nobody wrote:I'd like to see the Tau expand farther, and find more xeno allies. something to make them more competitive story wise.

I doubt you will be disappointed by the next Tau dex if the 5th Ed. Necron book is any indication.

Kaldor wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:I want them to advance the fluff because they've set the current fluff up as a precipice. We're not at the final destination, all the pieces are being put into place for bigger and better things.

The current fluff is the cliffhanger in a season finale of a tv show, and I'm eagerly awaiting the next season.

That's exactly why it shouldn't be advanced. It's perfect as it is, and advancing it will remove all that tension and potential from the setting.

Maybe it's a testament to their story-telling abilities, or just my own need to see how things turn out, but that's really unsatisfactory. If they never advance the story, then there isn't any tension or potential to it. Nothing else can happen because they refuse to move forward, so where is the potential? You know nothing else will happen and this is just the way it is, so where is the tension?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zweischneid wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:I want them to advance the fluff because they've set the current fluff up as a precipice. We're not at the final destination, all the pieces are being put into place for bigger and better things.

The current fluff is the cliffhanger in a season finale of a tv show, and I'm eagerly awaiting the next season.

Well. I think the cliffhanger-description is pretty spot on, but the idea isn't for GW to write the season finale. The idea is for each and ever gaming group to do so.

They serve you up this cliffhanger... you paint the minis and play it out like you think it should be played out

Of course, over 25 years of 40K history, too much of it has become too hallowed for its own good in many ways. Like the "lost legions" for example. Back in the 80s, they left two blanks so people could fill it with their own. But if you walk into a gaming-store today and say your home-made-colour-scheme-marines are the Lost II Legion (instead of the descendants of the descendants of X), people will as likely scorn you for your audacity of touching the lost legions, rather than salute your creativity.

The problem isn't that 40K-verse doesn't advance. The problem is that people have become overtly reliant on GW to do it for them.

That's just laziness on their part. They've written a pretty great piece of fiction, and instead of keeping it moving along they say, "now it's your turn!" They're storytellers who've abandoned their story, it shouldn't be the fans' job to fill in the blanks.

MandalorynOranj wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:I want them to advance the fluff because they've set the current fluff up as a precipice. We're not at the final destination, all the pieces are being put into place for bigger and better things.

The current fluff is the cliffhanger in a season finale of a tv show, and I'm eagerly awaiting the next season.

That's exactly why it shouldn't be advanced. It's perfect as it is, and advancing it will remove all that tension and potential from the setting.

Maybe it's a testament to their story-telling abilities, or just my own need to see how things turn out, but that's really unsatisfactory. If they never advance the story, then there isn't any tension or potential to it. Nothing else can happen because they refuse to move forward, so where is the potential? You know nothing else will happen and this is just the way it is, so where is the tension?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zweischneid wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:I want them to advance the fluff because they've set the current fluff up as a precipice. We're not at the final destination, all the pieces are being put into place for bigger and better things.

The current fluff is the cliffhanger in a season finale of a tv show, and I'm eagerly awaiting the next season.

Well. I think the cliffhanger-description is pretty spot on, but the idea isn't for GW to write the season finale. The idea is for each and ever gaming group to do so.

They serve you up this cliffhanger... you paint the minis and play it out like you think it should be played out

Of course, over 25 years of 40K history, too much of it has become too hallowed for its own good in many ways. Like the "lost legions" for example. Back in the 80s, they left two blanks so people could fill it with their own. But if you walk into a gaming-store today and say your home-made-colour-scheme-marines are the Lost II Legion (instead of the descendants of the descendants of X), people will as likely scorn you for your audacity of touching the lost legions, rather than salute your creativity.

The problem isn't that 40K-verse doesn't advance. The problem is that people have become overtly reliant on GW to do it for them.

That's just laziness on their part. They've written a pretty great piece of fiction, and instead of keeping it moving along they say, "now it's your turn!" They're storytellers who've abandoned their story, it shouldn't be the fans' job to fill in the blanks.

i agree, and really want to continue the story at least a little, but think that we would have to throw mat ward into a wormhole or strike him down with a conversion beamer or something before the project of furthering the story could be started

MandalorynOranj wrote:
That's just laziness on their part. They've written a pretty great piece of fiction, and instead of keeping it moving along they say, "now it's your turn!" They're storytellers who've abandoned their story, it shouldn't be the fans' job to fill in the blanks.

You think so?

I doubt it is laziness. It was the entire reason of writing the story in the first place. They never did, as a novel-author would, sit down and plan a story that would end. They wanted to create a story, any story, that could end at this precise moment of precipice. That was the whole point. Do you think they left out, to return to the example, 2 founding legions because they couldn't come up with another 2 (or 20 or 200) silly names like Space Wolves or Iron Hands? Or because they couldn't just say there were only.. dunno 18 or 15 or whatever Primarchs to begin with? Surely not. They left it blank because they wanted the blanks to be there. They took alot of effort to create these blanks. They are a result of conscious effort to provide narrative space for their "customers", not a symptom of lacking imagination.

The same applies to the "current state" of 40K. It has been, since its inception, hyped as the "pivotal moment" in the Galaxies history, precisely because that is where people presumably want to play. GW puts you into the final showdown of the great 40K epic saga, because that is what they sell you... the opportunity to play it with your minis through the final stages up to the rolling credits at the end.