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This isn't meant to be overly comprehensive or anything but I did want to take the time and try and explore how these two units compared to each other now that 6th edition has finally been released. Please feel free to add any thoughts about the units or counter points to my own thoughts that you have one way or the other. These are just my own personal musings on the two different units and their variances. Note that I have not broken out any math hammer for these units and will not be overly reciting any in my post.

Triarch Praetorian:


Special rules: re animation protocols; fearless; Hammer of wrath; Bulky; deep strike; relentless; thrust move;

Synopsis: Triarch Praetorians have undergone heavy changes to their utility. Now since they are a jump unit they will get equal attacks to an assaulting lychguard unit by adding in their hammer of wrath strikes (though the hammer of wrath strike is at a lower strength and ap- it is worth mentioning). They are still an ap2 weapon so they thankfully still are capable of ignoring all regular armor saves. At initiative 2 they will not be striking ahead of most things and still can be wrecked by powerfists. Fearless is much more helpful now since you don’t have to take random saves for sticking your ground anymore. I would deeply recommend attaching a destroyer lord to this unit to make it much more threatening in both ranged and close combat, by adding preferred enemy to the unit allowing them to reroll their 1‘s helps out immensely.

Lychguard:


Synopsis: The most immediate thing I can see this unit offers over the praetorians is a much stronger anti-tank presence. It will take much stronger maneuvering to bring them into range (not quite as hard as it used to be with 2d6“ assault ranges), but once they have reached the tank it’s likely all but nuked. Their attacks are just a tad slower than the praetorians as well (being that the praetorians get 1 attack at I:10) However they also will hit harder on their initial charge since all 3 of their attacks benefit from ap1. Both are tied for survivability against power weapons though praetorians might be aided a small amount by their I:10 strikes.

At this point between both units it seems praetorians are a more maneuverable and more likely suited to counter assaults more than leading the fray being able to move themselves 12“ and reroll assault ranges. If you want them to be more direct assault worthy you'll likely need to add a Destroyer lord to the party which would dramatically increase their potential. Whereas Lychguard seem to be a harder hitting squad (without the aid of an aditional charachter) more guaranteed to nuke tanks in close combat and hurt non-assault dedicated troops faster.

umm, just to let you know, this site doesn't tend to take too kindly to people posting unit stats in detail...
(just in case)

I would consider editing the post before a mod finds it. Listen to good sir Skoffs.

That being said, the also fill largely different roles, I see Lychguard as a counter-charging troop of the line, whereas Praetorians are a quick and maneuverable unit for flank attacks and tying up shooty elements of the enemy where they can win on the charge or even in a protracted melee.

Most things without a plethora of invuln saves will die against a lychguard charge, unless your dice just hate you. (even is true with the sword and board, unless they are terminators, but this removes them as a threat to armor)

Yes you need to alter your post to post less rule.

Lychguard are just better. More armor ignoring attacks and striking before powerfists is huge.

Pratorians have to choose to use their 12" move or get the Init10 hit. Wraiths are just that much better than praetorians when it comes to just about everything except taking out Teq which Lychguard are that much better against.

Praetorians, even with the new rules, imo are still inferior to Wraiths

Lychguard are somewhat decent, though took a hit with their AP3 power swords

kenshin620 wrote:Praetorians, even with the new rules, imo are still inferior to Wraiths

Lychguard are somewhat decent, though took a hit with their AP3 power swords

wraiths are stupidly good
lychguard shouldnt have swords, the scythe is just too good.

Exergy wrote:Yes you need to alter your post to post less rule.

Lychguard are just better. More armor ignoring attacks and striking before powerfists is huge.

Pratorians have to choose to use their 12" move or get the Init10 hit. Wraiths are just that much better than praetorians when it comes to just about everything except taking out Teq which Lychguard are that much better against.

I disagree, the shooting attack that Praetorians have, is pretty huge. Strength 5 AP2 shots and/or Hammer of Wrath are better than an extra attack at Init 2. You'll also find that against TEQ a Unit of 5-6 Praetorians with a Dlord are exceptionally well suited to taking out, with minimum casulties. Lychguard are Terrible against TEQ. They will either go down very quickly if wielding Warscythes, or they will just tarpit and likely eventually loose with the Sword and board.

Praetorians true potential is unlocked when you throw a Dlord with them. They get significantly better, and syngergize better with a Dlord than any other unit we have.

wraiths are stupidly good
lychguard shouldnt have swords, the scythe is just too good.

And what purpose do Scytheguard fulfill? They are terrible at taking out TEQ, and anything that strikes before them with power weapons will likely destroy them.

Sasori wrote:

Exergy wrote:Yes you need to alter your post to post less rule.

Lychguard are just better. More armor ignoring attacks and striking before powerfists is huge.

Pratorians have to choose to use their 12" move or get the Init10 hit. Wraiths are just that much better than praetorians when it comes to just about everything except taking out Teq which Lychguard are that much better against.

I disagree, the shooting attack that Praetorians have, is pretty huge. Strength 5 AP2 shots and/or Hammer of Wrath are better than an extra attack at Init 2. You'll also find that against TEQ a Unit of 5-6 Praetorians with a Dlord are exceptionally well suited to taking out, with minimum casulties. Lychguard are Terrible against TEQ. They will either go down very quickly if wielding Warscythes, or they will just tarpit and likely eventually loose with the Sword and board.

Praetorians true potential is unlocked when you throw a Dlord with them. They get significantly better, and syngergize better with a Dlord than any other unit we have.

wraiths are stupidly good
lychguard shouldnt have swords, the scythe is just too good.

And what purpose do Scytheguard fulfill? They are terrible at taking out TEQ, and anything that strikes before them with power weapons will likely destroy them.

How are the terrible at taking out teq? They have 2 attacks, hitting on 4s then wounding on 2s then teq get their invuln but crucially before the power fists get to strike. Against normal teq with the 5++ you should kill half of them assuming points are equal. The fists will do a number in return but as half the squad has been cut down it wont be so bad.

Now pratorians either have to use their jump packs to get within 6" to use their guns, in which case they wont get their hammer of wrath at init10 or they are probably going to be out of range moving just 6" forward.
So assume they use their packs in the movement phase, jump up within 6" and shoot. 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 2/3 get past the 5++ invuln .28 wounds per model. Nothing special, Combi plasma is much better. Now they charge in with no reroll of charge distance because they already used their jump packs. They dont get their flashy init 10 attack and they strike symo with power fists. everybody is hitting on 4s and wounding on 2+ but the termies have the 5++ making up for the few that were killed in shooting. I dont see how pratorians are going to win this?
If they dont use thier jump packs in the movement phase then I dont think they get to shoot. Who is going to park their terminators less than 12 inches from a squad of praetorians? Wait for them to come into range or tie them up with something else.

Throw in a destroyer lord? Rerolling 1s is great and he puts out a lot of damage. Fine he costs a lot, give me twice as many terminators, challenge the destroyer lord with the termy seagent. 9 terminators will kill off the pratorians while the dlord kills the seargent. Then in the next round of assault the dlord is going down, though he will take some terminators with him.

Now against TH/SS terminators I think both praetorians and lychguard are all but worthless. the 3++ is just too good for 40points.

Just an FYI, praetorians with the staff are INIT 1. You could instead take them with the voidblade/p.caster for init 2 and more attacks, but much worse CC capability.

Also, where are you getting that praetorians are relentless?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exergy wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Exergy wrote:Yes you need to alter your post to post less rule.

Lychguard are just better. More armor ignoring attacks and striking before powerfists is huge.

Pratorians have to choose to use their 12" move or get the Init10 hit. Wraiths are just that much better than praetorians when it comes to just about everything except taking out Teq which Lychguard are that much better against.

I disagree, the shooting attack that Praetorians have, is pretty huge. Strength 5 AP2 shots and/or Hammer of Wrath are better than an extra attack at Init 2. You'll also find that against TEQ a Unit of 5-6 Praetorians with a Dlord are exceptionally well suited to taking out, with minimum casulties. Lychguard are Terrible against TEQ. They will either go down very quickly if wielding Warscythes, or they will just tarpit and likely eventually loose with the Sword and board.

Praetorians true potential is unlocked when you throw a Dlord with them. They get significantly better, and syngergize better with a Dlord than any other unit we have.

wraiths are stupidly good
lychguard shouldnt have swords, the scythe is just too good.

And what purpose do Scytheguard fulfill? They are terrible at taking out TEQ, and anything that strikes before them with power weapons will likely destroy them.

How are the terrible at taking out teq? They have 2 attacks, hitting on 4s then wounding on 2s then teq get their invuln but crucially before the power fists get to strike. Against normal teq with the 5++ you should kill half of them assuming points are equal. The fists will do a number in return but as half the squad has been cut down it wont be so bad.

Now pratorians either have to use their jump packs to get within 6" to use their guns, in which case they wont get their hammer of wrath at init10 or they are probably going to be out of range moving just 6" forward.
So assume they use their packs in the movement phase, jump up within 6" and shoot. 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 2/3 get past the 5++ invuln .28 wounds per model. Nothing special, Combi plasma is much better. Now they charge in with no reroll of charge distance because they already used their jump packs. They dont get their flashy init 10 attack and they strike symo with power fists. everybody is hitting on 4s and wounding on 2+ but the termies have the 5++ making up for the few that were killed in shooting. I dont see how pratorians are going to win this?
If they dont use thier jump packs in the movement phase then I dont think they get to shoot. Who is going to park their terminators less than 12 inches from a squad of praetorians? Wait for them to come into range or tie them up with something else.

Throw in a destroyer lord? Rerolling 1s is great and he puts out a lot of damage. Fine he costs a lot, give me twice as many terminators, challenge the destroyer lord with the termy seagent. 9 terminators will kill off the pratorians while the dlord kills the seargent. Then in the next round of assault the dlord is going down, though he will take some terminators with him.

Now against TH/SS terminators I think both praetorians and lychguard are all but worthless. the 3++ is just too good for 40points.

TH/SS comment, I agree with.

As for the rest of what you said, are you forgetting that the necrons (praetorians specifically, due to fearless) also have a 5++ (or 4++ with orb)? Same with lychguard, but they're likely going to run after being out damaged. Because honestly, why would you ever not take storm shields on termy's unless you really didn't have the points.

How are the terrible at taking out teq? They have 2 attacks, hitting on 4s then wounding on 2s then teq get their invuln but crucially before the power fists get to strike. Against normal teq with the 5++ you should kill half of them assuming points are equal. The fists will do a number in return but as half the squad has been cut down it wont be so bad.

Let's be realistic here, who doesn't take TH/SS Termies, when they can? A Normal Lychguard squad of 5 members, will cause 4-5 Wounds, which is one downed TH/SS Terminator. The termies swing back, and it's 4 downed Lychguard, in which the lone member then has to take a LD 6 test to avoid running away. That's terrible.

Now pratorians either have to use their jump packs to get within 6" to use their guns, in which case they wont get their hammer of wrath at init10 or they are probably going to be out of range moving just 6" forward.

So assume they use their packs in the movement phase, jump up within 6" and shoot. 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 2/3 get past the 5++ invuln .28 wounds per model. Nothing special, Combi plasma is much better. Now they charge in with no reroll of charge distance because they already used their jump packs. They dont get their flashy init 10 attack and they strike symo with power fists. everybody is hitting on 4s and wounding on 2+ but the termies have the 5++ making up for the few that were killed in shooting. I dont see how pratorians are going to win this?
If they dont use thier jump packs in the movement phase then I dont think they get to shoot. Who is going to park their terminators less than 12 inches from a squad of praetorians? Wait for them to come into range or tie them up with something else.

You need to throw in the Dlord, to make the Praetorians shine. They aren't worth taking without him.

Throw in a destroyer lord? Rerolling 1s is great and he puts out a lot of damage. Fine he costs a lot, give me twice as many terminators, challenge the destroyer lord with the termy seagent. 9 terminators will kill off the pratorians while the dlord kills the seargent. Then in the next round of assault the dlord is going down, though he will take some terminators with him.

This is a silly comparison. You have to take an HQ, and the Destroyer lord is great for that role He doesn't cost 5 TH/SS Terminators either. Instead of making it 10, A more realistic squad would have a libby, or a SC. Not to mention, you are completely disregarding the shooting, of the Praetorians.

Now against TH/SS terminators I think both praetorians and lychguard are all but worthless. the 3++ is just too good for 40points.

Run the Math of a Dlord squad of Praetorians, against a realistic squad of TH/SS They will come out on top, thanks to the PE granting those rerolls.

Kevin949 wrote:Just an FYI, praetorians with the staff are INIT 1. You could instead take them with the voidblade/p.caster for init 2 and more attacks, but much worse CC capability.

Also, where are you getting that praetorians are relentless?

They have assault weapons, they don't need relentless.


Both unit are really body guards, so it really comes done to your HQ. Do you have a foot slogging Overlord? Bring LG. Want a DLord instead? Bring Triarch Praetorians. Bring the Res Orb/Semp Weave/MSS.

As for the Wraith comparison, when you are comparing attaching Triarchs with a res orb and prefered enemy protecting your DLord, or just Wraith with preferred enemy, you start seeing why the Triarchs come out ahead (and, you know, you can have both, they don't compete for a slot, and having both means if the TPs get shot out from under the DLord he has another unit to jump to, as well giving you a combined assault that wrecks just about anything in the game).

T5 3+ RP 4+ eats bullets for breakfast. Throw in cover (and potentially night fighting) and the Triarchs have a better resiliency matrix then Wraiths do (more survivable to a greater percentage of weapons. The only weapon profile Wraiths have an advantage against is plasma). Also, with Preferred Enemy helping thier Pistol or Rod shot as well as their CC attacks, Triarchs are almost as punchy as Wraiths.

Another advantage I've found is you can bring Triarchs over 6 bases, stretching that preferred enemy and res orb real far.

But again, bring both. I run a group of 8 TPs with a DLord and 2 groups of 5 Wraiths. I love it.

I can't comment on LG as much as I don't run them, but I do see them as a viable body guard of Trazyn or something similar.

Sasori wrote:

Let's be realistic here, who doesn't take TH/SS Termies, when they can? A Normal Lychguard squad of 5 members, will cause 4-5 Wounds, which is one downed TH/SS Terminator. The termies swing back, and it's 4 downed Lychguard, in which the lone member then has to take a LD 6 test to avoid running away. That's terrible.

Now pratorians either have to use their jump packs to get within 6" to use their guns, in which case they wont get their hammer of wrath at init10 or they are probably going to be out of range moving just 6" forward.

You need to throw in the Dlord, to make the Praetorians shine. They aren't worth taking without him.

This is a silly comparison. You have to take an HQ, and the Destroyer lord is great for that role He doesn't cost 5 TH/SS Terminators either. Instead of making it 10, A more realistic squad would have a libby, or a SC. Not to mention, you are completely disregarding the shooting, of the Praetorians.

Run the Math of a Dlord squad of Praetorians, against a realistic squad of TH/SS They will come out on top, thanks to the PE granting those rerolls.

A Dlord doesnt cost that much? Seems most people take a res orb, MSS and S weave in which case they come out to 190 points, 10 less than 5 more terminators.
Throwing in a SM HQ would be silly. I could choose a space marine captain with relic blade artificer armor and digital weapons plus an additional termiantor, for 195 points. Seargent challenges the Dlord. The pratorians have no other character so he accepts. The Captain strikes first at init5 hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s probably killing a praetorian or two before they strike.

Exergy wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Let's be realistic here, who doesn't take TH/SS Termies, when they can? A Normal Lychguard squad of 5 members, will cause 4-5 Wounds, which is one downed TH/SS Terminator. The termies swing back, and it's 4 downed Lychguard, in which the lone member then has to take a LD 6 test to avoid running away. That's terrible.

Now pratorians either have to use their jump packs to get within 6" to use their guns, in which case they wont get their hammer of wrath at init10 or they are probably going to be out of range moving just 6" forward.

You need to throw in the Dlord, to make the Praetorians shine. They aren't worth taking without him.

This is a silly comparison. You have to take an HQ, and the Destroyer lord is great for that role He doesn't cost 5 TH/SS Terminators either. Instead of making it 10, A more realistic squad would have a libby, or a SC. Not to mention, you are completely disregarding the shooting, of the Praetorians.

Run the Math of a Dlord squad of Praetorians, against a realistic squad of TH/SS They will come out on top, thanks to the PE granting those rerolls.

A Dlord doesnt cost that much? Seems most people take a res orb, MSS and S weave in which case they come out to 190 points, 10 less than 5 more terminators.
Throwing in a SM HQ would be silly. I could choose a space marine captain with relic blade artificer armor and digital weapons plus an additional termiantor, for 195 points. Seargent challenges the Dlord. The pratorians have no other character so he accepts. The Captain strikes first at init5 hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s probably killing a praetorian or two before they strike.

Unless the Dlord challenges him first, since it's almost assured that they will get the charge.

Exergy.

That's a pretty unlikely combo, and you likely won't kill all of them. After RP kicks in, you should still be down a couple Termies+Sergeant, and the DLord will be free to beat you captains face the next turn. I'm pretty sure the Crons would win this one in the end.

Sasori wrote:

Unless the Dlord challenges him first, since it's almost assured that they will get the charge.

and then the seargent just accepts. Any character can accept a challenge.

Exergy wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Unless the Dlord challenges him first, since it's almost assured that they will get the charge.

and then the seargent just accepts. Any character can accept a challenge.

And then you quite possible have wound overflow, bleeding into the unit, depending on your view on http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459779.page

ShadarLogoth wrote:Exergy.

That's a pretty unlikely combo, and you likely won't kill all of them. After RP kicks in, you should still be down a couple Termies+Sergeant, and the DLord will be free to beat you captains face the next turn. I'm pretty sure the Crons would win this one in the end.

they might, if you assume that the SM have to have an HQ with the unit and it just has to be bad at combat. Once the first round of combat is over the pratorians only have 1 attack to the terminators 2.
Looking over it again the best plan might be to just decline any challenge and beat the Dlord down. He only has 3+1 attacks. even with the reroll he is only going to take down one TH/SS. Then he doesnt have an invul save so he no harder to kill than the praetorian so keep knocking him down might be the best move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sasori wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Unless the Dlord challenges him first, since it's almost assured that they will get the charge.

and then the seargent just accepts. Any character can accept a challenge.

And then you quite possible have wound overflow, bleeding into the unit, depending on your view on http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459779.page

as of right now i dont think there is but maybe with an FAQ. Still then it comes down to wether he fails his MSS and then we arent talking about that many wounds anyway. The dlord has 4 attack on the charge but not all hit, not all wound and then he still has the 3++. The seargent could live, its not likely but he could.

Lychguard have been reduced to counter assault/squishy unit protection, now. Their swords aren't going to do much apart from keep MEQ at bay (at least their shields are still useful at protecting whatever they're standing in from of from shots?)

Praetorians (with Dlord) and Wraiths work wonderfully in tandem with each other... just a pity you can only ever use them in big point games (600+ odd points is a little steep to include in anything less than the 2000 level)

Preatorains fail without a Dlord, who nearly doubles the point cost(might as well just have 8 preatorains) The facts that they have 2 attacks on the charge(hammer of wrath is nothing to TEQ) and swing at the same time as powerfists, means they kill little but die alot. A waste of points. Lychgaurd I great with a veiltek though, rebounding shots and distracting your opponents entire backfield. Then killing anything but tanks and TEQ(though a lord w scythe and orb is a great addition)

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Just an FYI, praetorians with the staff are INIT 1. You could instead take them with the voidblade/p.caster for init 2 and more attacks, but much worse CC capability.

Also, where are you getting that praetorians are relentless?

They have assault weapons, they don't need relentless.

*I* know they don't need relentless, what I was saying is that they don't HAVE relentless. Mainly, I was pointing out misinformation in the first post. I believe the OP was confusing jet pack infantry with jump infantry.

Exalted Pariah wrote:Preatorains fail without a Dlord, who nearly doubles the point cost(might as well just have 8 preatorains) The facts that they have 2 attacks on the charge(hammer of wrath is nothing to TEQ) and swing at the same time as powerfists, means they kill little but die alot. A waste of points. Lychgaurd I great with a veiltek though, rebounding shots and distracting your opponents entire backfield. Then killing anything but tanks and TEQ(though a lord w scythe and orb is a great addition)

Your misunderstanding something here.

Step One, Take the DLord. Who is amazing, rapes 99% of units in challenge, kills vehicles, etc.

Step Two, look for a good compliment.

Step Three, Triarch Praetorians.

And they are T5, 3+, with RP, and fearless. They don't "die alot" too much of anything. Also, they have 3 AP 2 attacks on the charge (+Hammer when applicable). One strength 5 and two Strength 6. They kill plenty.