Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys,

So a friend of mine has been teaching me to play Fantasy; the problem is that he was used to older editions and has only really given 8th a few read-overs.

He *insists* that the best place for support casters such as a level 1 necromancer that is just going to use an augment spell is to stand behind my army, by himself. He says that, in Fantasy, he can't be shot behind my units and is immune to anything bar flanks. Is this true? Are support wizards, such as Life Wizards or my Invocation of Nehekh spamming Necros best off standing behind my battle line? Can they really not be hurt there by anything other than flyers or flankers?

Thanks

Warmachines can tap them and then they would not get a lookout sir unless they were within 3 inches of a unit then it would be a 4+ whereas if they were in the unit it would be a 2+

Not all Warmachines can fire indirectly though, right?

Sorry to pump about simple rules, but I'm at work thinking about all this whilst my rulebook's at home

It all depends on the tools your enemy has.

For example, with my Dark Elves, if someone did that I would have a bonanza because my 5 units of 18" marching fast cavalry with rxbs is going to have no problems getting behind those blocks.

Also, since WFB is based on true line of sight, archers or machines on a hill or in a tower have a decent chance of picking them out. They will get Look Out, Sir, but they aren't invincible.

If they're not in a unit, they can be targeted for shooting and spells so long as line-of-sight can be demonstrated. And since 8E works on true-line-of-sight, you do this by getting down to eye level on the mini and taking a peek. You'd be surprised how often you can see a single mini 'hiding' behind even a big block.

Now circumstances may conspire to make shooting ineffective - say, a block of monsterous infantry will block LOS and stop cannonballs, and even a skirmish unit will provide hard cover (making it harder to hit the target) and a Look Out Sir roll (turning hits on the single model into hits on the unit). The real killer of a solo character is Spells... which never have to roll to hit, and can generate enough 'hits' to ensure several will make it past the LOS roll.

Look out sir is essentially a 2+ ward save vs. templates and 0+ vs. regular shooting (you can't hit them except with Sniper) at the expense of sacrificing someone else. I.e., pretty much the best protection in the game. You have to find unique reasons to NOT want to be in a unit, and there are very few.

They give hero+monster mounts, or simply large targets, get a bigger inspiring presence value because they realize you're sacrificing a lot by not having a lookout sir, even if you're sitting on an Ancient Dragon of Awesome.

And you can only get the 4+ lookout sir if the unit that is within 3" of you is the same type. An infantry hero near cavalry gets nothing.

I almost never leave mages out in the open. All it takes is a 55 point unit of harpies and that 150 point lv2 is dead.

My lv4 mages are generally in big bunker units like Phoenix Guard and lv2 mages usually hide in archer units.

Unless your mage is incredibly tough or can't be hurt in the first place (i.e ethernal Slann) then you have almost no reason not to deploy them in a unit, at least to start the game. Almost every army has some form of shooting, and if they can see you behind your main line then they can shoot you. The biggest threat turn 1-2 is probably magic, since it bypasses the need to hit.

That said throwing characters (not just mages, its often helpful for BSBs as well) out the back of a unit can be a very useful tactic to protect them depending on the situation. Rather than starting behind the unit you are better off leaving the unit turn 3 or so before the big blocks start mashing into each other. You can still get sniped and you need to be careful not to get hit by flanking units swinging back around, but by turn 3 hopefully you have done something to deal with your opponents nastiest war machines and other support units so the chances of it happening aren't as great.

I put a sorcerer in a unit of chaos warriors next to a unit of 30 marauders... she blew up and killed 7 warriors and 12 marauders

Well the reason I ask is because I tried putting a Necromancer in a huge bunker of 50 skeletons... my opponent charged with his dwindling Warriors of Chaos (my Lore of Metal vamp and Terrorgheist had given them quite the beating). Three models on his front rank were touching the Necromancer and directed their attacks against him = squished Necromancer and a crumbling army.

Could I have avoided that? Should I have done as Powerguy suggested and run out the back? This was around turn 3.

Put the necromancer in a bunker of zombies, have that bunker sit at the back of your lines and just keep it protected.

Rivet wrote:Warmachines can tap them and then they would not get a lookout sir unless they were within 3 inches of a unit then it would be a 4+ whereas if they were in the unit it would be a 2+

Hi, could you give a page number/refence for this as at my FLGS i played a dark elf list where he insisted he got 2+ lLook out the way if he was in 3". I didnt care as my view is that if i dont know the rules im not going looking for them at the expense of the game.

brentyboi wrote:

Rivet wrote:Warmachines can tap them and then they would not get a lookout sir unless they were within 3 inches of a unit then it would be a 4+ whereas if they were in the unit it would be a 2+

Hi, could you give a page number/refence for this as at my FLGS i played a dark elf list where he insisted he got 2+ lLook out the way if he was in 3". I didnt care as my view is that if i dont know the rules im not going looking for them at the expense of the game.

I can check when I get home unless someone checks and beats me to it before then.

Page 97 for the 4+ if you are NOT in a unit but within 3".
Page 99 for the 2+ if you ARE in a unit and are shot with something like a template or cannon.

To avoid your necro getting hit, in the turn before you get charged you can move him to the back of the unit. He'll still be able to cast any non LOS spells from there.

I thought your lords and heroes had to be in the first rank

Rivet wrote:I thought your lords and heroes had to be in the first rank

Ah, pg 97 does indeed say that characters must go in the front. I was thinking of when you refuse a challenge which is when you are moved to the back.

Do as others said and keep the unit out of combat.

A tactic I like to use with my Dark Elf Sorceresses when they are hanging out with my crossbowmen is to use buildings. By only sending a few models at a time, and steadfast because of the building, the Sorc can ride out a few rounds of combat without much threat.

And, when her unit is whittled down enough for her to be in serious peril, I use my turn to move her alone and out of the building to a point out of the charge arc of the enemies attacking the building.

Aerethan wrote:

Rivet wrote:I thought your lords and heroes had to be in the first rank

Ah, pg 97 does indeed say that characters must go in the front. I was thinking of when you refuse a challenge which is when you are moved to the back.

Do as others said and keep the unit out of combat.

If you have multiple characters in the unit he can actually be place din the second rank as the command models must be in the first rank (to be displaced with make way moves) so it is feasable to have him hang out in the 2nd rank of a bus of zombies. BUT this obviously makes this an expensive unit

A) always put your characters in a unit if you can
B) always give your casters defensive magic items. This means ward saves! (chaos warriors will have max 9 attacks to allocate unless frenzied. 6 hitting on average. 3 wounding on average (s4 t4). A 4+ ward helps bring this to a cointoss rather than garuntee.)
C) vampires are your generals usually. The general MUST take the vampire lore.
D) never take only one nehek caster. 2 is decent. 3 is better!
E) Necromancers will die. Vampires are far harder to kill. Crumbling with them is much more difficult.