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So I played my first game of 6th the other day, and my opponent kept doing something that not only was REALLY adding time to the match, but Im not sure if it was really legal or not. I suppose it was legal, but still very annoying and just dragged the game on in a big way. Heres the setup

He had 5 terminators, 1 was a Sgt with a power maul, 1 had the missile launchers on its back. The team was lead by Lysander.


Now I had a 20 mob of boyz w/2 big shootas (1 was on the nob) While shooting, he would literally roll EVERY SINGLE WOUND 1 by 1. He did the same thing when doing CC results. He stated it was to make sure that the closest model being shot was the one dying, and used a similar argument in CC. Now in my crazy line of thinking, wouldnt it be the SAME outcome and much faster if he just rolled say, all 8 wounds in 1 go and removed the appropriate casualties?

It drove me nuts. So how does it actually work? I dont have the rule book and we were on a time crunch so I didnt really want to waste time digging through the rulebook to see if he was just being annoying or not. So how does this work?

Yes he can do it. Yes there is a faster way in this situation. Yes it is mentioned in the book. Fast Dice pg 16

If the closest model is equipped differently (armor) and what tetrisphreak says below, then yeah, one dice at a time, in shooting. In h2h, with all the models in b2b, you can do things faster and much the same as in 5e, pending Challenges.

Check this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/460326.page

Particularly the Termie Captain in front of the Devs is what your situation sounds like.

As above.

If the save being taken is an identical dice roll for all the models, the saves are rolled at once. unsaved wounds are then allocated to closest models and look out sir's can throw them onto other models in the unit if they hit characters.

If the save being taken would be different, models get allocated wounds and then roll their saves. The best way to do this is to allocate to as many like-save models as possible, roll for them, then pull casualties and allocate again until all the wounds are used up.

The example above with 5 terminators and lysander would be all 2+ armor vs shoota boyz. wargear makes no difference in this case so he should have lump-rolled his saves.

You need to watch some people because rolling dice one by one is a very easy trick for dice-setters to always get a result equal or close to their desired one. Lump rolling takes away a lot of hand control over the plane on which the dice tumble, and I would encourage people enforcing this form of wound allocation whenever possible.

Ahh ok then. Good, so next time Ill make sure he ump rolls. Because yes I personally noticed his termies seemed to make far more saves when he was doing it 1 and a time, then I normally see. Infact, his saves were so good, the FIRST 20 boyz mob I threw at the terminators, lost big time and were killed, which I found odd. He only lost 1 terminator in my assault the first time.


Oki Doki, that makes sense. I really need to get my rulebook though, because kindda stuff I can just look up and learn instead of relying on someone else to be honest and then come here and ask a simple question.

Statistically speaking, whether you roll 20 dice at the same time or rolling them 1 at a time, the outcomes are the same.

It's only your feeling.

leohart wrote:Statistically speaking, whether you roll 20 dice at the same time or rolling them 1 at a time, the outcomes are the same.

It's only your feeling.

Statistics matter not when a person is manipulating the dice. Not all players do it but for those who do its much easier to roll 1 dice in a practiced manner than a handful.

leohart wrote:Statistically speaking, whether you roll 20 dice at the same time or rolling them 1 at a time, the outcomes are the same.

It's only your feeling.

That's not true to be honest. The more dice you roll you have better chance of rolling random numbers.

captain-crud wrote:

leohart wrote:Statistically speaking, whether you roll 20 dice at the same time or rolling them 1 at a time, the outcomes are the same.

It's only your feeling.

The more dice you roll you have better chance of rolling random numbers.

Actually your statement is incorrect.

The chance of any single Die coming up on any single number is about 16.66%.

This does not change if you roll 1 die or 20 dice.

So if you roll one die 20 times, and 1 batch of 20 dice, they both have the same chance of rolling all sixes.

It is just that rolling them one at a time takes longer.

DeathReaper wrote:

captain-crud wrote:

leohart wrote:Statistically speaking, whether you roll 20 dice at the same time or rolling them 1 at a time, the outcomes are the same.

It's only your feeling.

The more dice you roll you have better chance of rolling random numbers.

Actually your statement is incorrect.

The chance of any single Die coming up on any single number is about 16.66%.

This does not change if you roll 1 die or 20 dice.

So if you roll one die 20 times, and 1 batch of 20 dice, they both have the same chance of rolling all sixes.

It is just that rolling them one at a time takes longer.

Actually DR it depends on who is rolling and what kind of dice are being used.16.66 is the chance on perfect/precision dice. GW and a few others have much worse % for certain numbers.
Also if you have someone who knows how to cheat with dice then rolling one or two dice at a time CAN change the odds in the rollers favor.

I have caught this kind of thing a few times.

Cheating aside it does not matter who is rolling the dice, The probability is the same for any number, and fairly consistent on any D6. Some may be a little unbalanced, but overall it is about 16.666667% per number.

Either way the following statement is incorrect.

captain-crud wrote:The more dice you roll you have better chance of rolling random numbers.

DeathReaper wrote:Cheating aside it does not matter who is rolling the dice, The probability is the same for any number, and fairly consistent on any D6. Some may be a little unbalanced, but overall it is about 16.666667% per number.

Either way the following statement is incorrect.

captain-crud wrote:The more dice you roll you have better chance of rolling random numbers.

WRONG!

I can roll a dice and make it only flip 1 time on the table and so if I always hold the dice with one at the bottom and make it land the way i am holding it and it will never be a 1.

However, then there come tiemes i throw it too hard which makes it flip 2 times then it will be a one but if i throw it too light it will land on 1 so 6 will come up.

probability is all good but people cheat. rolling dice is a way of cheating. not everyone throw the dice and let it spin wildly on the table some people drop them some people literally places them on the table.

Marthike, Did you even read my post?

"Cheating aside..."

AKA Without cheating...

Yes, but still your assuming the dice are perfect dice, when in most cases they are not. Specially the GW type or chessex which you see EVERYWHERE. Those dice are utter gak and roll so inconsistently its not funny. Besides, from personal experience, I can batch roll my shoota dice and come up with FAR better accuracy then single handedly rolling them, and I dont cheat at all. Ive rolled the same way for years, and its been pretty consistant everytime, if someone rolls for terminator saves 1 at a time, they do better then if they take all 15 wounds and roll them as a batch. Ive seen it a million times. So you can math hammer it all youd like, and use percentages and pretend to be the dice expert, problem is, sometimes things on paper dont work out in real life. Real life, my FIRST 20 boyz mob should of trounced the 5 terminators the first time, not take 38 boyz, 2 nobz, and 2 separate assaults WITH shooting phases to take down.

DeathReaper,

Your statement is not true. I've heard that there are some people who are buying GW dice in multitudes. They are then dropping these GW dice into water buckets to see how they roll. For some crazy reason they are having batches of dice that roll 5's and 6's consistently. This is due to the way the dice are made. The person will then take the majority of the dice that roll high and use those for shooting, CC and saves. They will then take the ones that roll low and use them for leadership.

This is not a new concept.

I better statement for you is that by just holding a dice in your palm and dropping it will have the same chance of rolling a number as anyone else with a perfectly weighted and measured die. For example a craps dice.

Yea I use Bicycle dice. Sure it sucks trying to roll when I assault things with the horde, but thats fine by me. I also will roll my dice a good 100 times and mark the outcomes of how many were 1-3 and how many were 4-6 and then try it again to see if they are similar outcomes. If I get some that seem to roll the same 2 numbers more then normal, those become the dice my kids get to play with while daddy plays 40k But yea, I use the Bicycle because they are square, and seem to be much more consistent in rolling then popping the same number more often then not. I do wish they didnt drill the pips out though, but the cost of similar square dice that are not drilled is pretty high. Maybe Ill get into making my own dice next year.....hmmm, thats not a bad idea really

I had a guy tell me that he played a SM player and the guy rolled over 60 dice in 3 turns only missing a few times and failing only 2 armor saves. When the SM player had to take a leadership test for a power he went to use a different set of dice. The guy made him use the dice that he rolled to hit with and rolled a 12.

He didn't accuse him of cheating but he knew something was up.

I simply use the "left-overs" cube from GW with different colored dice. I use the blue ones for scatter because the scatter die happens to be blue. I use the single green dice for important rolls because orks are green.

I have absolutely no reason to believe any of the dice roll better than average. If anything, they roll too average, as my shoota boyz happen to kill the exact average of marines/guardsmen/eldar way to often.

MJThurston wrote:DeathReaper,

Your statement is not true.

The laws of probability back me up...

KingCracker wrote:Yes, but still your assuming the dice are perfect dice, when in most cases they are not. Specially the GW type or chessex which you see EVERYWHERE. Those dice are utter gak and roll so inconsistently its not funny.

Dice are dice, they will roll about 16.6% per number, with only a few points variance overall, Given a large enough sample size that is. (Unless they have been purposely made to roll a certain number, or are defective).

DeathReaper wrote:

MJThurston wrote:DeathReaper,

Your statement is not true.

The laws of probability back me up...

KingCracker wrote:Yes, but still your assuming the dice are perfect dice, when in most cases they are not. Specially the GW type or chessex which you see EVERYWHERE. Those dice are utter gak and roll so inconsistently its not funny.

Dice are dice, they will roll about 16.6% per number, with only a few points variance overall, Given a large enough sample size that is. (Unless they have been purposely made to roll a certain number, or are defective).

DR,

I agree with you that probability says the dice do not care how many at a time you roll. Using a method such as a dice cup is one of the best ways to keep dice rolling fair.

The problem presented in the thread however stems from what i "believe" to be someone using the rules as a premise to allow them to roll dice one at a time, for the limited purpose of controlled or practiced rolling, which gives a higher success rate to people who can do it properly. Now I was not present during the OP's game, nor do I know either player personally to make such a judgment, but that was the first thought that entered my mind.

So, while a die may not care whether you roll him solo or with his whole family of bros, a person manipulating such dice does care because it's easier to practice flipping a single cube 360 degrees to get the same result each throw, than to try to get a handful to land on a specified facing (or not land on one, as is the case with a 2+ save).

...back to the OP.

If you have a PK on that nob, your opponent should have been rolling the saves 1 at a time, when it gets to Lysander IF an invuln is involved. But once it went to regular saves, they could have been fast rolled.

tetrisphreak wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

MJThurston wrote:DeathReaper,

Your statement is not true.

The laws of probability back me up...

KingCracker wrote:Yes, but still your assuming the dice are perfect dice, when in most cases they are not. Specially the GW type or chessex which you see EVERYWHERE. Those dice are utter gak and roll so inconsistently its not funny.

Dice are dice, they will roll about 16.6% per number, with only a few points variance overall, Given a large enough sample size that is. (Unless they have been purposely made to roll a certain number, or are defective).

DR,

I agree with you that probability says the dice do not care how many at a time you roll. Using a method such as a dice cup is one of the best ways to keep dice rolling fair.

The problem presented in the thread however stems from what i "believe" to be someone using the rules as a premise to allow them to roll dice one at a time, for the limited purpose of controlled or practiced rolling, which gives a higher success rate to people who can do it properly. Now I was not present during the OP's game, nor do I know either player personally to make such a judgment, but that was the first thought that entered my mind.

So, while a die may not care whether you roll him solo or with his whole family of bros, a person manipulating such dice does care because it's easier to practice flipping a single cube 360 degrees to get the same result each throw, than to try to get a handful to land on a specified facing (or not land on one, as is the case with a 2+ save).

Hitting a board, a piece of terrain or a vehicle with a dice makes just as random. There are also throwing tequniques which make it all but impossible to influence the outcoume, like trying to add a backspin to the dice.

It is not true to say that rolling them one at at time is the same as rolling them all together unless the actual dice rolled are the same. If I take 20 different dice, and roll each of them once, then that will be the same as rolling them all together (as long as I'm not cheating). However, when one rolls a single die, 20 times, that die and it's balance will be multiplied 20 times. If that die happens to roll a lot of 6's, then the average of the 20 times may be much higher. When one rolls 20 dice, they increase randomness by using different dice, which each have their own individual weights and balance issues.

I think we all agree that dice are 16.6 percent per side. Again to address the OP if shootas were shooting at terminators his opponent should have rolled all the saves at once. Not doing so (in my opinion) makes me believe his opponent was *attempting* to cheat by fixing his dice rolls.

Actually on most dice, you have a better chance of rolling a 6 then a 1, you know because the 1 side is heavier the the 6 side....so the 1 wants to go down, because of gravity.....just saying.
Since it is relevant to the OP question.

Geemoney, dice manufacturers have been aware of that fact for centuries, and so dice are manufactured to balance out that weight difference.

As noted, any given modern manufactured die is probably going to be so close to "true"/perfectly even on all sides that you will never notice any difference, even if you roll it thousands of times and record the results.

A defective/unbalanced die is an exception. If you notice that your opponent is favoring specific dice for specific types of rolls (high/low), you can always ask him to switch them, or to let you use them too. If he reacts in an antisocial way, you can choose to discontinue the game, or bring in a judge if it's a tournament.

captain-crud wrote:

leohart wrote:Statistically speaking, whether you roll 20 dice at the same time or rolling them 1 at a time, the outcomes are the same.

It's only your feeling.

That's not true to be honest. The more dice you roll you have better chance of rolling random numbers.

lol, every dice you roll is a random number

Unless you somehow physically manipulate the falling die so it doesn't properly roll.