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Another psyker conundrum I've been thinking about

One of the effects of Hallucinogen, telepathy power #6, is You! You're a traitor! The targeted unit starts attacking each other in close combat. Attacks are made using the bonus and rules of their most powerful close combat weapons (if any) which basically leads me to ask the following.

Say I uses this power on a squad of Paladins are they forced to activate their Nemesis Force Weapons making all their wounds ID attacks?

I would say yes as by the rules they are required to use their most power close combat weapons and rules.

Seems a little shady to me, just wanted some thoughts.

I would say no as it's an optional pyscic power.
It says they make attacks, it does NOT say that you control them for the duration of their assault phase.

It says you use the strength bonuses ap values and special rules of their most powerful ccw's, activating a force weapon is a special rule for that weapon so yes you have to activate them.

spongemonkee wrote:It says you use the strength bonuses ap values and special rules of their most powerful ccw's, activating a force weapon is a special rule for that weapon so yes you have to activate them.

Actually activating the force weapon is not a special rule for the weapon. Activating the force weapon is an actual expenditure of a warp charge, in other words it's a psychic power given to the psyker by a force weapon, not a power of the weapon. Hallucination does not allow the unit to activate a psychic power. Even though the weapon itself has the force rule, and it uses that rule, the psyker is given no permission to take a psychic test. That same group of grey knights are not forced to cast hammer hand, are they?

spongemonkee wrote:It says you use the strength bonuses ap values and special rules of their most powerful ccw's, activating a force weapon is a special rule for that weapon so yes you have to activate them.

Reread the force weapon rules, and note they grant a psychic power to the bearer. The WEAPON does not take psychic checks, after all

This is the same as MSS, adn the same answer applies: You cannot force them to activate their forceweapons

The power gives you permission to use a weapons special rule, this means you can force weapon things down. A hit is reference to a normal CC wound. Hallucination gives enough permission to do anything the unit can do with it's weapons.

You can't force anything other than stuff related to a hit from a CC attack, you aren't given permission to control a unit as per puppet master, but in reference puppet master allows you to fire a ranged weapon, and psykic powers can be ranged weapons.

If a non-Psyker was armed with a force weapon (never going to happen, but let's assume for this example), the wielder would be unable to activate the weapon.
The weapon has the 'force' rule, but that's useless by itself unless the model wielding the weapon can activate it.
So just being able to control a models close combat attacks isn't enough to activate a force weapon, you'd need to control the model completely (including expending your opponents warp charges).

Agree with a No.

You can use the special rule of the weapon, sure.

That special rule allows the model equipped with it access to a psychic power, nothing more.

So by that logic Tyranids are immune to the effect of this power as they do not use CCW's.

Can a GK llayer opt to not use the NFW rule for these models, if not, then yes, Hallucination would kick them in.

grendel083 wrote:If a non-Psyker was armed with a force weapon (never going to happen, but let's assume for this example)

Actually, an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can take a Nemesis Daemon hammer without being a Psyker.

we've had quite a long discussion on this in the 5th edition for GK psychotrope grenades and the consens was no, you can't use their force weapons. You just get the Ap3 and their normal strength. You cannot elect to have them do hammerhand either, it'll be up to the owning player to decide if he wanted to do that .

Now the specific rules for Puppetmaster on the other hand gives you control of the unit so I'd assume you can use psychic shooting effects.

And how exactly do you activate the weapon when the psyker(s) has no warp charge(s) during your turn.

HoverBoy wrote:And how exactly do you activate the weapon when the psyker(s) has no warp charge(s) during your turn.

Unless the psyker has already used all his warp charges that player turn, he definitely still has them. Warp charges replenish each (player) turn.

juraigamer wrote:The power gives you permission to use a weapons special rule, this means you can force weapon things down. A hit is reference to a normal CC wound. Hallucination gives enough permission to do anything the unit can do with it's weapons.

The weapon isnt taking the psychic test, so you cannot FW anything.

Find permission to use special rules of the wielder, not the model

Nids - they HAVE a ccw even if one isnt specifically mentioned.

Nids either have Claws and Teeth (a normal CCW) or they have no specific CCW and are treated as having one. Of course the argument for the other side is that since BS, ST, RC etc all fall under the heading of CCW, they must all be CCW. YMMV.

Maybe but all the nid upgrades talk about attacks or wounds made by the model, and even if the nids use claws & teeth they as models are still attacking and using their biomorphs, heck nids allways use the claws and teeth it's just that some of those are longer and have odd shapes.

If i had to say. I think they don't have to activate it. However a lot of GK players take the banner in which case they are activated anyway so LOL.

captain collius wrote:If i had to say. I think they don't have to activate it. However a lot of GK players take the banner in which case they are activated anyway so LOL.

They actually aren't activated. You just pass the test. You still have to use your warp charge and select to either activate or cast something else like hammer hand.

I think alot of people still misplay that banner rule.

sudojoe wrote:

captain collius wrote:If i had to say. I think they don't have to activate it. However a lot of GK players take the banner in which case they are activated anyway so LOL.

They actually aren't activated. You just pass the test. You still have to use your warp charge and select to either activate or cast something else like hammer hand.

I think alot of people still misplay that banner rule.

So essentially its activating without the chance of perils correct?

Yes.