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OK after an extensive reading and re-reading of the BRB and FAQ I think I finally have the answer to the question.

"Can Broodlords use beam and nova Witchfire powers even though they are BS0?"

And my answer is yes. Please tell me if you see a hole in the logic.

First we must ask why they can not. The answer is always "BS0 means no shooting whatsoever. See p.3 of the rulebook, under Zero-level Characteristics."

And that is hard to refute. For shooting attacks.

But if we go to pg.50 of the BRB it defines all shooting attack types (look at Types): Assault, Heavy, Ord, Pistol, Rapid fire or Salvo. The rules state these are ALL of the shooting attacks.

Notice that Template is not there? Look again at the rules. A Template type weapon is NOT a shooting attack. It is an attack that is made using the rules for Templates during the Shooting Phase. Just as Run is a movement made in the Shooting Phase(So we can see that things other than shooting happen in the Shooting Phase).

OK, so we have defined what a shooting attack is (an attack with a weapon with the Assault, Heavy, Ord, Pistol, Rapid fire or Salvo types.)

Lets go to Witchfire on pg.69
Now Witchfire says that they are OFTEN REFERRED to as psychic shooting attacks (not that they are) and a unit that uses one counts as having shot a weapon. It counts as firing an Assault weapon UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED (some older Codexes do not define the type of attack done in the shooting phase).

So we go and look at Assail and Shockwave in the TK section of the BRB.
They have a weapon profile. They have a specified type. They are Beam and Nova respectivly. So we know what type of weapon they are now. That means that section in Witchfire no longer applys as they are specifily defined as a type other than Assault.

As it is not a shooting attack it does not need to have a BS as pg3 only specifies shooting attacks as they are defined on pg50 and they are not Assault as they have been given a specified type in the power discription. Just like Template type weapons they are attacks resolved in the shooting phase that are not shooting attacks. And just like Run the Psychic Shooting Phase is something that happens in the Shooting Phase that does not have to be a shooting attack.

Therefore Assail and Shockwave are psychic attacks that are resolved in the shooting phase, is not a shooting attack (as they are not shooting weapons) and if you use the power it counts as having shot once.

Problems with the logic or RAW?

Gloomfang wrote:OK after an extensive reading and re-reading of the BRB and FAQ I think I finally have the answer to the question.

"Can Broodlords use beam and nova Witchfire powers even though they are BS0?"

And my answer is yes. Please tell me if you see a hole in the logic.

Your answer should be No.

To say that firing a flame template is not a shooting attack is not logical. (RAW is clear as well).

"must shoot at the same target as his unit," P.69 Left Column, 2nd Graph 1st sentence.

Also:
"Note that, as witchfire is a Shooting attack," P.69 Left Column, 2nd Graph 3rd sentence.

I would like to point out that having a BS of 0 does not mean you cannot shoot a weapon, it just means you cannot hit normally. If the ability does not rely on BS to hit (such as templates) or automatically hits (such as beam or nova powers). This is why Old Zogwort is able to use his PSAs.

Happyjew wrote:I would like to point out that having a BS of 0 does not mean you cannot shoot a weapon, it just means you cannot hit normally. If the ability does not rely on BS to hit (such as templates) or automatically hits (such as beam or nova powers). This is why Old Zogwort is able to use his PSAs.

This exactly. There's nothing restricting a 0 BS model from shooting.
It's just that anything that hits based on BS will automatically miss as it's impossible to roll a 7 on 1d6.

Templates, blasts, lines, novas, Snap Shots, etc. are all valid ways for a 0 BS model to shoot.

Poorly constructed logic.

Dozer Blades wrote:Poorly constructed logic.

Can you quote what you're calling poorly constructed? There's been a few posts in the thread.

Gloomfang wrote:
First we must ask why they can not. The answer is always "BS0 means no shooting whatsoever. See p.3 of the rulebook, under Zero-level Characteristics."

The paragraph on pg 3 doesn't explain this comprehensively enough for me to conclude that BS0 means something as general/blankety as "no shooting whatsoever". That would be like saying a WS 0 model could conduct "no fighting whatsoever" (when in actuality it could obviously still be charged, engaged and locked). What WS 0 really means is "no hitting or defending whatsoever" and what BS 0 means is "no rolling to hit with ranged weapons whatsoever") .

So beams and novas are fine. And a flamer would be fine, if your Broodlord could somehow take one. A model with WS 0 and Hammer of Wrath would be fine.

As stated if your BS is 0, you cannot shoot unless the attack auto hits.

DeathReaper wrote:
Your answer should be No.

To say that firing a flame template is not a shooting attack is not logical. (RAW is clear as well).

"must shoot at the same target as his unit," P.69 Left Column, 2nd Graph 1st sentence.

Also:
"Note that, as witchfire is a Shooting attack," P.69 Left Column, 2nd Graph 3rd sentence.

Shooting and making a Shooting Attack are two diffrent things. Please list where Template weapons are listed as a type of Shooting Attack (not something that shoots).
A Template shoots something. It is still not a Shooting Attack. It is not defined as a shooting attack (pg50 again). Shooting Attacks require a BS. Template attacks do not. It is why there are not To-Hit rolls for Template attacks, becasue they are not a Shooting Attack. You place the template and anything under it is hit.

And if what you are saying is true then the rules would have Beam as Type Assualt with a Beam USR. And I wish they had becasue it would have cleared all this up. As it stands the BRB states that the ONLY types of weapons types that count as a Shooting Attack are Assault, Heavy, Ord, Pistol, Rapid fire or Salvo. Beam and Nova (and Maelstrom too) are weapon types that are NOT defined as Shooting Attacks they are NOT Shooting Attacks.

juraigamer wrote:As stated if your BS is 0, you cannot shoot unless the attack auto hits.

Quote the rule please. It's not under Zero Level Characteristics.

ZERO-LEVEL CHARACTERISTICS
Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also occasionally represented by a '-').

A model with Weapon Skill '0' is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows. A model with no Attacks cannot strike any blows in close combat.
A warrior with an Armour Save of '-' has no armour save at all. If at any point, a model's Strength, Toughness or Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty.

juraigamer wrote:As stated if your BS is 0, you cannot shoot unless the attack auto hits.

I have been challanged with the information on Pg3. That has caused me to define what is a Shooting Attack. I was supprised to find out that, by RAW, Templates are not Shooting Attacks.

BS 0 means two things:
1. You automatically miss with any attack that requires a To Hit roll based on BS (as you can not roll a 7 on a D6).
2. You automatically fail any and all BS Characteristic tests.

Gloomfang wrote:[A Template shoots something. It is still not a Shooting Attack. It is not defined as a shooting attack (pg50 again). Shooting Attacks require a BS. Template attacks do not. It is why there are not To-Hit rolls for Template attacks, becasue they are not a Shooting Attack. You place the template and anything under it is hit.

Can you charge any unit after using a Template on Target squad A, or can you only charge Target Squad A?

"MORE THAN ONE WEAPON
Unless otherwise stated , if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot" P.51

"TEMPLATE WEAPONS
Template weapons are indicated by having the word Template' for their range instead of a number. Instead of rolling To Hit..." P.52

"RANGE
...if it contains a nurnber, or Template' it is a shooting weapon." P.50

Proof they are weapons and it is a shooting attack.

rigeld2 wrote:

juraigamer wrote:As stated if your BS is 0, you cannot shoot unless the attack auto hits.

Quote the rule please. It's not under Zero Level Characteristics.

You have to look a little harder. The section regarding the math to figure out what you need to roll to hit.

You take 7 and then subtract your BS

So, 7-0=7.

You can't roll a seven.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gloomfang wrote:

juraigamer wrote:As stated if your BS is 0, you cannot shoot unless the attack auto hits.

I have been challanged with the information on Pg3. That has caused me to define what is a Shooting Attack. I was supprised to find out that, by RAW, Templates are not Shooting Attacks.

I'm not sure why you are worrying, beams and novas auto hit, so it's not a problem. Furthermore all witchfire powers are PSA's.

juraigamer wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

juraigamer wrote:As stated if your BS is 0, you cannot shoot unless the attack auto hits.

Quote the rule please. It's not under Zero Level Characteristics.

You have to look a little harder. The section regarding the math to figure out what you need to roll to hit.

You take 7 and then subtract your BS

So, 7-0=7.

You can't roll a seven.

Right. Blast weapons don't auto-hit, but you could fire one with a BS of 0.
edit: and it's not that you can't fire, you just auto-miss. There's no difference that I know of right now, but there may be in the future.

It obviously is not stated anywhere explicitly. So regardless of what we decide, some of it must be inferred.

They say that a 0 characteristic "have no ability whatsoever".
So if you have WS0, you have "no ability whatsoever" in CC.
If you have BS0, you have "no ability whatsoever" in shooting.

Which, of course, begs the question: What does 'no ability whatsoever' actually mean in game terms?

They don't say... but they do say for WS0

"they are struck automatically, and cannot strike any blows"

From this, I think the last part is most important. It does not say they 'miss every blow', but rather they can't even swing. They have attacks, they just can't use them.

When I try and extrapolate to BS0, the closest analogy I find is "cannot shoot any attacks" Again, not that they miss all the time, but rather they can't even take the shot.

I realize a case can still be made that 'autohits' are not 'taking a shot', but I really don't think that jibes with the example regarding WS0.


Likewise, they give an example of 0 att means they cannot strike any blows. Even if they charge, thus getting +1 attack, they still can't attack.

coredump, let me ask you this then. Old Zogwort has a BS of 0. As an Ork psyker, his power is random and MUST be used. What happens when he rolls one of the PSA (please note however, that all Ork PSAs auto-hit.)?

Hey, cool. Like I said, this needs to be inferred, and I didn't know about Zogwort... pretty good indication that BS0 can 'shoot' if things auto hit.

coredump wrote:Hey, cool. Like I said, this needs to be inferred, and I didn't know about Zogwort... pretty good indication that BS0 can 'shoot' if things auto hit.

I knew there was an example of it I had played against. It had just been a long time I forgot.

As for the rules questions earlier. Part of Witchfire states using a Witchfire power COUNTS as firing a shoting attack for determing how many shooting attacks has or has used.

I have answers for the other questions too, but I am on my smartphone and away from my rulebook to cite pages.

Gloomfang wrote:As for the rules questions earlier. Part of Witchfire states using a Witchfire power COUNTS as firing a shoting attack for determing how many shooting attacks has or has used.

I have answers for the other questions too, but I am on my smartphone and away from my rulebook to cite pages.

It also states that Witchfire IS a shooting attack.

coredump wrote:Likewise, they give an example of 0 att means they cannot strike any blows. Even if they charge, thus getting +1 attack, they still can't attack.

This I would disagree with. If you have A:0 but get +1A from charging, then you have 1 attack in the turn in which you charged.

Gloomfang wrote:But if we go to pg.50 of the BRB it defines all shooting attack types (look at Types): Assault, Heavy, Ord, Pistol, Rapid fire or Salvo. The rules state these are ALL of the shooting attacks.

Notice that Template is not there? Look again at the rules. A Template type weapon is NOT a shooting attack. It is an attack that is made using the rules for Templates during the Shooting Phase. Just as Run is a movement made in the Shooting Phase(So we can see that things other than shooting happen in the Shooting Phase).

Yes, template is not a type itself, but template weapons always have a type. Flamers and Heavy Flamers are both of the Assault type, for instance, while a Flamestorm Cannon is Heavy. So they are shooting attacks.

So we go and look at Assail and Shockwave in the TK section of the BRB.
They have a weapon profile. They have a specified type. They are Beam and Nova respectivly. So we know what type of weapon they are now. That means that section in Witchfire no longer applys as they are specifily defined as a type other than Assault.

Beam and Nova is the type of psychic power, they're still Assault weapons as stated in their profile. Witchfire powers are always shooting attacks.

But as has been noted, BS0 can still shoot auto-hitting abilities, so the Broodlord can use Assail and Shockwave without issue.

Bean's Herald wrote:

coredump wrote:Likewise, they give an example of 0 att means they cannot strike any blows. Even if they charge, thus getting +1 attack, they still can't attack.

This I would disagree with. If you have A:0 but get +1A from charging, then you have 1 attack in the turn in which you charged.

You can disagree, but it is explicitly stated in the rule book. If the characteristic is 0, it "cannot strike any blows in close combat"

Of course, if it has +1 Attack, does it still have a characteristic of 0?

Redemption wrote:But as has been noted, BS0 can still shoot auto-hitting abilities, so the Broodlord can use Assail and Shockwave without issue.

Agreed. The section regarding zero-level characteristics at the beginning of the book supports this. In fact, it makes no mention of what affect a Ballistic Skill of 0 would have on a model. So RAW, BS of 0 can't roll to hit (its not even on the chart) but can still technically 'shoot' which means Blast, Template, and weapons which automatically hit can still be used.

coredump wrote:You can disagree, but it is explicitly stated in the rule book. If the characteristic is 0, it "cannot strike any blows in close combat"

True, but not really relevant to the topic on hand. I realize you were replying to someone, my point is that this rule is moot to the topic at hand.

Pretty clear cut, and a nasty thing for a Broodlord to wander around with... I'll have to tread lightly!