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Do any Space Marine chapters have established working relationships with certain Imperial Guard units or are they just thrown together whenever one needs support of the other? I tried looking it up in the wiki and Lexicanium, but I didn't find anything.

Mainly curious so I know what or whom to model some IG support of my Dark Angels.

I can only think of the Ultramarines and regiments from Macragge(not sure on the spelling).

I think the Dark Angels wouldn't really have a working relationship with any regiment, they would be to. . . self centred

I know they'd be more than reluctant to work with ratlings or ogryns, as they are near-xeno...

It's something that always interested me.

The interaction between the various chains of command, and the seniority of one arm of the military over the other.

We know that in joint operations, over-all command is usually give to one hierarchy. For example, we are told that during the War for Armageddon, Ragnar Blackmane of the Space Wolves chapter had over-all command of the theatre. We can then assume that he delegated authority accordingly, with naval command being given to someone, ground command to someone else, etc etc.

This also implies that an over-all commander is the norm. After all, someone has to be in charge. So how is that person normally chosen? Who outranks who? If an IG regiment and a Space Marine squad arrive at a war zone, does the IG Colonel outrank a SM Sergeant? What if it's a Lord General? What if it's a Company Captain? Or does the Admiral of the naval battlgroup outrank all of them?

And what about Sisters of Battle, Arbites, Inquisitors (who obviously outrank everyone, but how far do they push it?) etc, etc.

I mean the Dark Angels would work along side any regiment, but only until something more important happened


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaldor wrote:It's something that always interested me.

The interaction between the various chains of command, and the seniority of one arm of the military over the other.

We know that in joint operations, over-all command is usually give to one hierarchy. For example, we are told that during the War for Armageddon, Ragnar Blackmane of the Space Wolves chapter had over-all command of the theatre. We can then assume that he delegated authority accordingly, with naval command being given to someone, ground command to someone else, etc etc.

This also implies that an over-all commander is the norm. After all, someone has to be in charge. So how is that person normally chosen? Who outranks who? If an IG regiment and a Space Marine squad arrive at a war zone, does the IG Colonel outrank a SM Sergeant? What if it's a Lord General? What if it's a Company Captain? Or does the Admiral of the naval battlgroup outrank all of them?

And what about Sisters of Battle, Arbites, Inquisitors (who obviously outrank everyone, but how far do they push it?) etc, etc.

Are you refering to the third war?
Technically, a space marine stands outside the command structure, so they can't be ordered around by anyone save their own kind, an inquisitor and the high lords. generally a company captain or chapter master will attend command meetings and and they will be asked if they can do specific missions, which they will usually do

Not sure for the Dark Angels since they are, well, them..

But I do know that the Black Templars have a nice little relation with the Steel Legion and Commissar Yarrick for the 3rd war for Armageddon

its 40k it depends!

The Chapters nature does make a huge difference to how they interact with the Guard - as does to a lesser degree the Guard Regiments nature as most Imperial citizens, Guard or not, will be in awe (and often fear) of Astartes. Space Marines often have difficulty recognising and understanding "mortals" limitaions and abilities which can result in feelings of contempt or frustration. Guard units. Some Chapters see the Guard as little more than cannon ofdder to cause a distraction whilst the Asartes carry out their mission.

From my reading of the Fluff

Black Templars are somewhat contempeous of "mortal" until they are proved in battle - however they are equally scathing about other Astartes /Mechanicus etc. They will work perfectly well with the Guard or the other Imperial forces.

Salamanders see themselves as the protectors of Humanity and so will not squander humanities defenders and are happy to fight alongside them. Ultramarines are somewhat similar but are slightly more restricted due to their dependance on the Codex.

Iron Hands consider the guard (and any other Imperial force - including themselves) as nothing more than tools ot acheive an end - casulaties, morale and how they are perecived by them are completely irrelvant - they do not appear to have many skills in leadership/interacting with others.

Some - like the Fleshtearers are known to be as terrifying and bad for morale (and survival chances) as they are against the enemy.

It also depends on the Astartes some actualy dislike the Guard (thinking them to weak to do anything on there own/ moving bullet magnets) and outhers admire them (seeing them fight the foes of the emperor with nothing more than cardboard on there back (flakk armor) and the standerd Imperial lazer light) its just from marine to marine and chapter to chapter. As for thoes that work with the Blood Angels and sub chapters there are thoes that know about there flaw and can hurt moral and outhers frankly dont care. becouse help is better than nouthing in some cases.

A High-ranking guard commander will, in most cases, be in overall command. The SM will be used to bolster positions, surgical raids, etc... But as Kaldor said the highest ranking Marine will always be consulted on what actions should be taken.
With direct reference to the DA, they will happily fight alongside guard units (eg. Picina) until the chance arises for them to hunt down the fallen, which will take precedence over the war that they are fighting with their guard allies, then they will bugger off and leave the guard to their doom.
In the DA codex in the Angels of Absolution section it talks about how they hunt the fallen to the extent that they have left whole guard armies facing huge ork waaaghs to their doom so that now some regiments would refuse their aid. The AoA are described as the worst of the unforgiven at this whcih would suggest that the DA would leave their allies in a reasonable position before leaving for the fallen hunt or, at least, not be as bad as the AOA.

Note that I may have the wrong successor chapter here...I don't have the codex to hand.

Kaldor wrote:This also implies that an over-all commander is the norm. After all, someone has to be in charge. So how is that person normally chosen? Who outranks who? If an IG regiment and a Space Marine squad arrive at a war zone, does the IG Colonel outrank a SM Sergeant? What if it's a Lord General? What if it's a Company Captain? Or does the Admiral of the naval battlgroup outrank all of them? And what about Sisters of Battle, Arbites, Inquisitors (who obviously outrank everyone, but how far do they push it?) etc, etc.

As far as I recall, the High Lords assign a Warmaster to command such a theatre. The Third War for Armageddon would be a good example, and in this case it was Commissar Yarrick who was named supreme commander of all Imperial forces on the planet.

Other than that, Mr. Morden has already said what I'd have contributed - it really depends on the individual Chapter, some are honoured and regarded as inspiring, many are just feared, some are hated.

To provide examples of the latter (as we usually only hear about those with good relationships), here's two transmissions regarding the Marines Malevolent and the Fleshtearers from GW's official Armageddon 3 campaign website:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070126085809/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/malevolent.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20061217154926/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/ftearers.html

Depends on the chapters etc etc etc.

Many Marine chapters believe themselves superior to human beings, so that often gets in the way, but the more prominent chapters tend not to (space wolves, ultramarines, salamanders, blood angels, etc).

I was gonna say Mentor Legion, because I've read that "lending themselves" to the Guard was more or less their speciality. When I went on Lexicanum to double check I read this.

"The Mentors are a secretive chapter, who prefer to work alone."

What's up with that, people?

As always, depends. As you know, Space Marines and the Guard/Navy are separate command structures, so they don't share bunks. However, if one requires assistance and the other is nearby, here's how it could go:

If one force is calling for assistance while the other is already engaged elsewhere, the Commander of the force will decide whether to send some help at the cost of his own conflict or refuse to help, prioritising his conflict over the other's. However, the Navy/Guard are less likely to make the latter decision due to superior numbers and more likely to face questioning over that decision when they get home.

If one force is calling for assistance while the other isn't already engaged, again, the Commander decides what to do. He may happily send all his forces if possible, however, he may be defending potential targets from enemies that haven't attacked yet, and sending help may diminish that defence.

Now here's what could happen if help is sent by either side:
The Commanders will have to decide who is in charge of what. Space Marines might listen to what high ranking Admirals, Guard Commanders, or Commissars have to say. They might think they know better and want the Guard/Navy to listen to them instead. Or one or the other might completely ignore trying to form a coalition and the two forces just do things their own separate ways.

fishy bob wrote:I was gonna say Mentor Legion, because I've read that "lending themselves" to the Guard was more or less their speciality. When I went on Lexicanum to double check I read this.
"The Mentors are a secretive chapter, who prefer to work alone."
What's up with that, people?

If you have the 5E Space Marine Codex, the supposed source for this claim, I greatly recommend looking up the original text yourself. Lexicanum isn't as reliable as way too many people claim - both because it still operates on the assumption that there is such a thing as "canon", as well as because some of its editors merge conflicting sources by adopting or dismissing their content based on personal preferences. And that's not even including the possibility that someone simply "mis-read" a source, which might have been the case here.

It could well be the studio retconning , but I have a feeling that somebody got that fluff bit in the 5E Codex the wrong way and conjured a conflict where none exists. Just because a Chapter is very secretive about the location of its Fortress-Monastery and the records contained within, or because they disdain working with other Marine Chapters, doesn't necessarily change anything about them "loaning" squads of Marines to the Imperial Guard.

I for one think it would be sad if GW changed their opinion on this. It was a cool and unique perk, and befitting of the Chapter's name.

fishy bob wrote:I was gonna say Mentor Legion, because I've read that "lending themselves" to the Guard was more or less their speciality. When I went on Lexicanum to double check I read this.

"The Mentors are a secretive chapter, who prefer to work alone."

What's up with that, people?

The Mentors and the Mentor Legion are two different chapters

I am also interested in the subject, and I'm looking for Black Library books to read on the subject. Does anyone else have any other recommendations, besides those listed?

Makarov wrote:I am also interested in the subject, and I'm looking for Black Library books to read on the subject. Does anyone else have any other recommendations, besides those listed?

There was an interesting discussion in the Grey Knights novel Dark Mechanicus (I think was the title) where an Inquisitor attempts to assert authority over the Adeptus Mechanicus.

I see the DA as less fight/plan side by side and more sit aloof, study and strike against targets that are threatening to the Imperial forces on the ground (i.e. Siege of Vraks).

The Mad Tanker wrote:I see the DA as less fight/plan side by side and more sit aloof, study and strike against targets that are threatening to the Imperial forces on the ground (i.e. Siege of Vraks).

But that's a sure-fire recipe for friendly fire though. There'd have to be some kind of communication and planning.

redkommando wrote:The Mentors and the Mentor Legion are two different chapters

Is that actually true? I would've thought that one is just a short name for the other.

I'm bashing Lexicanum's reliability fairly often, but even I don't think they would make this kind of mistake. >_>

Makarov wrote:I am also interested in the subject, and I'm looking for Black Library books to read on the subject. Does anyone else have any other recommendations, besides those listed?

"Dark Millennium" had a cool short story about a Salamanders squad trying to "interface" with an Imperial Guard platoon. They didn't get along well and the Marine leader almost killed the IG officer for daring to suggest the Marines grab some rest because his men would stand watch.
It was "Know Thine Enemy" from Gav Thorpe. I believe it is also included in BL's "Let the Galaxy Burn" anthology.

Yeah, yeah. I already hear the complaints about the Salamanders never doing such a thing. You're going to have to live with Black Library (or any other source of fluff) portraying different interpretations of the setting, Makarov. Consistency between sources is pretty much coincidence, so don't expect too much if you want to form an opinion based on this stuff, else you might be disappointed when book A says this and book B says that.

Kaldor wrote:

The Mad Tanker wrote:I see the DA as less fight/plan side by side and more sit aloof, study and strike against targets that are threatening to the Imperial forces on the ground (i.e. Siege of Vraks).

But that's a sure-fire recipe for friendly fire though. There'd have to be some kind of communication and planning.

Didn't the Dark Angels not care about the Imperial forces on Vraks at all and simply chose a different front for their own campaign?

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Not sure for the Dark Angels since they are, well, them..

But I do know that the Black Templars have a nice little relation with the Steel Legion and Commissar Yarrick for the 3rd war for Armageddon

Not just Black Templars, but the Blood Angels and Salamanders as well. PARTICULARLY the Salamanders, as they spent much of their time protecting the citizens instead of chasing after retreating Ork forces, etc., which got them a lot of respect.

The Ultramarines have already been mentioned as having their own regiments, I also imagine that where Fenris is so close to the Eye of Terror, the Space Wolves must have at the very least a rapport with the Cadians.

redkommando wrote:

fishy bob wrote:I was gonna say Mentor Legion, because I've read that "lending themselves" to the Guard was more or less their speciality. When I went on Lexicanum to double check I read this.

"The Mentors are a secretive chapter, who prefer to work alone."

What's up with that, people?

The Mentors and the Mentor Legion are two different chapters

From what I understand (from memory) is that you are right in that they are not the same, but I'm sure they don't coexist? The Mentors were "replaced" by Mentor Legion, or vice versa, and now people are mixing them up fluffwise. Confusing the fanbase, hehe.

But I'm not sure.

Lynata wrote:

redkommando wrote:The Mentors and the Mentor Legion are two different chapters

Is that actually true? I would've thought that one is just a short name for the other.
I'm bashing Lexicanum's reliability fairly often, but even I don't think they would make this kind of mistake. >_>

Makarov wrote:I am also interested in the subject, and I'm looking for Black Library books to read on the subject. Does anyone else have any other recommendations, besides those listed?

"Dark Millennium" had a cool short story about a Salamanders squad trying to "interface" with an Imperial Guard platoon. They didn't get along well and the Marine leader almost killed the IG officer for daring to suggest the Marines grab some rest because his men would stand watch.
It was "Know Thine Enemy" from Gav Thorpe. I believe it is also included in BL's "Let the Galaxy Burn" anthology.

Yeah, yeah. I already hear the complaints about the Salamanders never doing such a thing. You're going to have to live with Black Library (or any other source of fluff) portraying different interpretations of the setting, Makarov. Consistency between sources is pretty much coincidence, so don't expect too much if you want to form an opinion based on this stuff, else you might be disappointed when book A says this and book B says that.

Kaldor wrote:

The Mad Tanker wrote:I see the DA as less fight/plan side by side and more sit aloof, study and strike against targets that are threatening to the Imperial forces on the ground (i.e. Siege of Vraks).

But that's a sure-fire recipe for friendly fire though. There'd have to be some kind of communication and planning.

Didn't the Dark Angels not care about the Imperial forces on Vraks at all and simply chose a different front for their own campaign?

re the Salamanders - they still have individual personalities and in several novels they have different ideas about how best ot protect the mass of humanity, they might see it as their duty to protect (but not serve) but that does not mean they actuall all get on with humans or indeed react well to what the officer probably saw as implied weakness / critiscm?. In my view its not actually inconsistant just expanding the information on the Chapter from a paragraph or two in a Codex and having varying personalities within the 1000+ marines and support staff.

Yeah IIRC the Dark Angels just got on with their own action - although the Iron Hands in their recent novel were worse - pulling in three Warhound Titans to fight underground with telling their commander was a bit naughty - although there is a good reason for their haste...........they really are quite machine like in their lack of humanity..........almost Necron like in fact.

Mr Morden wrote:re the Salamanders - they still have individual personalities and in several novels they have different ideas about how best ot protect the mass of humanity, they might see it as their duty to protect (but not serve) but that does not mean they actuall all get on with humans or indeed react well to what the officer probably saw as implied weakness / critiscm?. In my view its not actually inconsistant just expanding the information on the Chapter from a paragraph or two in a Codex and having varying personalities within the 1000+ marines and support staff.

Hmm, good point... Maybe I adopted too closely to the whole "Salamanders = cool chummers brofisting everyone" deal that some people have been going about.

I dont know what guard armies follow the DA. There has to be som fluff out there of a Imperial Guard army assisting them in a conflict some where.

But for my black Templar army, I found that the Steel Legion was with them in the third war for armageddon, as mentioned above, so thats how I am starting out my guard army. Just like my warhound titan, I did some research and found that the Legio Metallica was on armageddon during that time. So I found those colors from epic 40k, and paintined my warhound up. Basically I am starting other armies around my Black Templars. I just need to find a place to get a lot of cheap steel legion troopers... or use all death korps of krieg models with the re-breathers.

fishy bob wrote:

redkommando wrote:

fishy bob wrote:I was gonna say Mentor Legion, because I've read that "lending themselves" to the Guard was more or less their speciality. When I went on Lexicanum to double check I read this.

"The Mentors are a secretive chapter, who prefer to work alone."

What's up with that, people?

The Mentors and the Mentor Legion are two different chapters

From what I understand (from memory) is that you are right in that they are not the same, but I'm sure they don't coexist? The Mentors were "replaced" by Mentor Legion, or vice versa, and now people are mixing them up fluffwise. Confusing the fanbase, hehe.

But I'm not sure.

Nay the Mentors replaced the Star Scorpions

I would look in to the catachan jungle fighters... I think they would be a good team match up for DA to be buddies with. Both come from a death world of sorts..... just a thought.

Lynata wrote:Maybe I adopted too closely to the whole "Salamanders = cool chummers brofisting everyone" deal that some people have been going about.

Well, I don't know what a chummer is but the Sallies are definitely the Chapter That Cares. Who cares if Apothecary Ti'Grek is a little colder about it than Captain Sha'Zu? The fact that either of them gives any gak at all makes them stand way out from most Astartes. Cf., the Iron Hands.

The only ref I have for Chummers is from Shadowrun where its part of their street slang.

Yeah the Iron Hands are not the caring type - at all, I find the Mechanicus therories about their specfic problem quite good

Lynata wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

The Mad Tanker wrote:I see the DA as less fight/plan side by side and more sit aloof, study and strike against targets that are threatening to the Imperial forces on the ground (i.e. Siege of Vraks).

But that's a sure-fire recipe for friendly fire though. There'd have to be some kind of communication and planning.

Didn't the Dark Angels not care about the Imperial forces on Vraks at all and simply chose a different front for their own campaign?

As I recall, the Imperial forces needed the spaceport shutdown to stop traitor reinforcement and the DA obliged. As for friendly fire, anyone who gets between the DA and their target is no longer "friendlies"