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The telekinesis power crush hits the model with a 2d6 strength hit, and a score of an 11 or 12 wounds automatically. Will a roll of 11/12 ID a T5 model like a roll of 10 will?

Yes...no....maybe...

With it not specifying that a 11 or 12 result is S10 (since strength cannot be raised higher than 10), my gut reaction is RAW says no, but I'd have no issue with an opponent IDing my T5 models with an 11 or 12 result.

Reading the power entry straight, yes it would. The attack is still the rolled strength (i.e. 11 or 12), it just wounds automatically, handily bypassing the fact that there is no indicators for 11 and 12 on the to-wound table. I know that model Characteristics cannot be raised above 10 (except for wounds), but does that apply to psychic power strength?

You are absolutely right. That particular rule only applies to model strength. There is a mention of a weapon's fixed strength being a scale of 1-10, but again, this is not a weapon profile with a fixed str. That leads to the next question, does a roll of 12 cause ID to a T6 model?

I think I'd still play it that the strength maxes at 10, so it would ID T5.

Just my 2 cents here, but I believe that Crush is in fact able to ID a T6 model on a roll of 12.

Why? Because Crush lasts for only one phase/sub-phase and so the number rolled is in fact the true number. I take this from the CSM faq, where it allows a Lord's attacks to exceed 10 with a Daemon Weapon, because you roll for it each fight sub-phase. Same with crush, each time you cast it, you roll the strength, and wouldn't "round down" to 10.

DMajiko wrote:Just my 2 cents here, but I believe that Crush is in fact able to ID a T6 model on a roll of 12.

Why? Because Crush lasts for only one phase/sub-phase and so the number rolled is in fact the true number. I take this from the CSM faq, where it allows a Lord's attacks to exceed 10 with a Daemon Weapon, because you roll for it each fight sub-phase. Same with crush, each time you cast it, you roll the strength, and wouldn't "round down" to 10.

So you just want to ignore the fact that the 5th edition rules made two explicit exceptions to the attribute limit--the number of attacks due to bonuses, and vehicle armor?

I don't think crush will ID anything on a roll of 11 or 12. The reason I state this is that the power says it only automatically wounds, not that there is any strength value attached to it. If the ability to automatically wound equals instant death, then the Rending USR would ID on a roll of 6

We are not playing fifth though are we.

In lieu of a faq or a ruling by GW (yeah, I know...) my opinion is that Crush was meant to be able to be S12, mostly in counterbalance to the fact it can be S2. This may be colored by the fact my Sorcerers can take TK powers, or by the fact the power itself says you are rolling for the strength of the hit, but it remains my opinion.

Of course, if you disagree, I would be happy to roll-off with you.

Solkan - I assume you mean 6th edition?

No he probably means 5th, your chaos lord daemon weapon example was redundant because attacks could go above 10 anyway, so the FAQ saying his attacks could go above 10, and your equating that to "because it's for something you rolled up that phase" has no real bearing on the discussion of whether a psychic power may be Strength 12.

Here is what I have for you:

"compare the weapon's Strength characteristic..." P. 14

Weapons have a Strength Characteristic.

"Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristics that can be raised above 10" P. 2

The Strength Characteristic can not be raised above 10

"Roll 2D6. The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result (a score of an 11 or 12 wounds automatically...)" P. 422

If you get an 11 or 12, it can not be raised above 10, so the Strength is stuck at 10, and it wounds automatically.

@SCVodimier - the Crush power specifically states that the strength of the power is the sum of 2D6. It then goes on to state that an 11 or 12 automatically wound, but it doesn't say anything further regarding strength, therefore the power is S11 or S12 and it automatically wounds.

@DeathReaper - But characteristics only apply to models. It even says that at the start of the book. If Crush modified the model's strength then I would agree with you, but it is a psychic power with its own strength entry and I couldn't find anything that puts a limit on such strengths. For instance, there are no weapons that go above S10, but there isn't anything that I could find that prohibited ever having a weapon with Strength of more than 10. The biggest poroblem would be that the to-wound table doesn't go above S10, but again, Crush specifically wounds automatically, so its a moot point.

No, the strength is not above 10, because the rulebook states it cannot go above 10. You need an affirmative, specific allowance to hit S11 or 12, and that is not present.

Where does the rulebook say that the strength of a psychic power cannot go above 10? (I'm totally happy to be wrong)

The limit is specifically applied to characteristics which are only assigned to models. The specific allowance is where the Crush power says that the strength of the attack is the 2D6 roll.

That isnt specific, because it tells you what happens instead of comparing strength to toughness. Specific would be "a roll of 11 or 12...."

Characteristics are not just "model" based. You cant have a S11 gun, for example.

It is specific. The strength of the power is the 2D6 roll. Thats pretty clear.

There are no S11 guns, because GW set the weapon characteristics that way. That is different to not being able to have a S11 gun.

We had something like this come up in a 5ht Ed game a while back. We MISSREAD the Ramming rule (forgot only tanks can ram) And had a Night Scyth go 36 some odd inches and ram something. The toatal strenght hit would have been like 14!!! Needless to say I was NOT too happy whne I tried to explain that the Streanght COULDNT go above 10 but COULDNT find anything that refuted this.

WHat I am getting at with my story is that I do think that if it is a special circumstance that isnt a characteristic value for a model or weapon it can indeed go to +10 ST.

"An automatic hit at st 2d6"

Oops I rolled a 12!!

Well lets look at the chart hmmm no 11's or 12's

"11 and 12 automatically wounds.....)

Oh good! But it IS still ST 11-12 because THATS what I rolled for the St of the attack!

Flinty wrote:It is specific. The strength of the power is the 2D6 roll. Thats pretty clear.

There are no S11 guns, because GW set the weapon characteristics that way. That is different to not being able to have a S11 gun.

No. Specific is "The strength of a roll of 11 or 12 wounds automatically, at Strength 11 and 12"

S: 2D6 is NOT specific.

Instead they wrote "wounds automatically", which given characteristics cannot go above 10 (A and AV excepting) INCLUDING ramming Strength (see last BRB FAQ for this) means that, at best, it is strength 10.

I'm not convinced, especially about your definition of "specific", but there's not really anywhere else this can go without me just re-stating my previous arguments about what constitutes a "characteristic"

Once again, to the house-rulemobile!

Man I wish I had that FAQ back then. I was the veteran player (10+years) and they had all just picked up the rule book (3 months ago). I KNEW it couldnt be more than st 10 but I couldnt SHOW them in the rule book. Looked pretty foolish. Not to mentioned I had ALWAYS though ANYTHING could RAM!

Gw have never allowed S above 10. Ever.

Play it as S11 or 12 if you wish, but the chances of this being the right answer (as in, what GW want you to do) is practically zero.

My question is, if the strength can go above 10 or remains at 10, why is no armor pen roll needed for a roll of 11 or 12? even if your strength was 10 or 12, armor 14 could still resist it, though as it is written right now, the power automatically pens.

@Nos - I'm sure something could be found somewhere, but I take your point. However there are a lot of rules that have been shaken up this release.

To be honest S11 is exactly the same as S10 for ID anyway, I just like the idea of having that once in a blue moon success of IDing something that doesn't usually need to worry about it (very cinematic, no?). Its a pretty long fault tree that has to occur before it would ever actually make a difference.

Flinty wrote:The limit is specifically applied to characteristics which are only assigned to models.

Page 14 Disagrees with you:
"compare the weapon's Strength characteristic..." P. 14

Do not ignore the fact that weapons have a Strength Characteristic, and that Strength Characteristic can not go above 10.

DMajiko wrote:In lieu of a faq or a ruling by GW (yeah, I know...) my opinion is that Crush was meant to be able to be S12, mostly in counterbalance to the fact it can be S2. This may be colored by the fact my Sorcerers can take TK powers, or by the fact the power itself says you are rolling for the strength of the hit, but it remains my opinion.

Of course, if you disagree, I would be happy to roll-off with you.

Please don't try that nonsense concerning TMIR roll offs here, it demonstrates that you haven't bothered reading the forum rules.

Solkan - I assume you mean 6th edition?

I had been talking about 5th edition, but you'll note that 6th edition also includes the statement that attacks are not limited by the 10 value cap.

So taking a FAQ question concerning one of the three attributes that are not limited by the cap of 10 (attacks, wounds, and vehicle armor value) and trying to apply it to one of the values is invalid.

RAW say no ID on 11 or 12.

Rules out here are the usual rules (rules in here tell you what to do when the usual rules cannot be followed)

Infantry models falling back should move 6" straight towards the closest point of their own board edge (they may move around impassable terrain and other models)

You do one thing till you meet an exception (cannot have 11 strength) then you check the exception rules to see what happens. 2D6 str, unless you roll an 11 or 12 where it wounds/penetrates automatically, it is not given a str characteristic in this case so cannot ID.

I don't know where people are getting the idea that they have an effective strength of more than 10, but only for a little while. That has no basis in the rules, the weapon is 1 of 3 types.

User - strength of the user, users strengths all capped at 10, basic rules

Modified User - modify the str of the user appropriately then use, note that because it modifies the users strength temporarily and the user strength is capped at 10 this is also capped at 10, so a pf on a S 6 model is still only 10.

Fixed - the weapon profile has a number between 1 and 10 - this is the kind of attack that is used as it does not use the users str in any way, the fixed value is between 1 and 10 and is assertained each time the attack is made as 2D6. If you roll an 11 or 12 it cannot set to 11 or 12 it does not set to 10 as it does not say set to 10, it does not use str at all, it simply wounds/penetrates as that is what it tells you to do should this happen.