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The upgrade Soul Devour gives your Daemon a Power Weapon, does this mean a Lord of Change could have a Power Maul, Axe, Sword or Hal-bard's abilities if it was modeled to have the appearance of one? The FAQ doesn't state this, so I'd thought I'd ask Dakka's opinion.

By the wording you've given alone, absolutely. It's no different rules-wise to being able to choose for, say, a Space Marine Captain.

Shure why not.

I don't think I agree with this. The text says 'the Daemon counts as armed with a power weapon'. At the time this was written, that only meant that CC attacks ignored armor. Now it means they are AP3.

I would probably roll my eyes at anyone that tried to pull this in a game, but I don't think I'd fight it that hard.

undertow wrote:I don't think I agree with this. The text says 'the Daemon counts as armed with a power weapon'. At the time this was written, that only meant that CC attacks ignored armor. Now it means they are AP3.

I would probably roll my eyes at anyone that tried to pull this in a game, but I don't think I'd fight it that hard.

No, now it means you look at the model to determine the type of power weapon it is equipped with.

undertow wrote:I don't think I agree with this. The text says 'the Daemon counts as armed with a power weapon'. At the time this was written, that only meant that CC attacks ignored armor. Now it means they are AP3.

I would probably roll my eyes at anyone that tried to pull this in a game, but I don't think I'd fight it that hard.

Yes, there are four types of Power Weapon, Hal-Bard, Lance, Sword and Axe.

Happyjew wrote:

undertow wrote:I don't think I agree with this. The text says 'the Daemon counts as armed with a power weapon'. At the time this was written, that only meant that CC attacks ignored armor. Now it means they are AP3.

I would probably roll my eyes at anyone that tried to pull this in a game, but I don't think I'd fight it that hard.

No, now it means you look at the model to determine the type of power weapon it is equipped with.

But the model isn't actually equipped with a power weapon, it just 'count as' equipped. I don't think it's justifiable to use rules for a power maul or axe.

With that said, I do realize that it's a grey area and I'm not really interested in a 5 page debate on what 'counts as' actually means. I would allow my opponent to use the rule the way you're describing, but not without a certain amount of eye-rolling.

In all respects, when a model is described as being equipped with a general power weapon, it does not mean 'Power Sword', I'd gain the armour ignoring bonus for simply being a MC if I was to use it with Kairos or a DP, but it would simply allow me to use it's strength or initiative bonus.

undertow wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

undertow wrote:I don't think I agree with this. The text says 'the Daemon counts as armed with a power weapon'. At the time this was written, that only meant that CC attacks ignored armor. Now it means they are AP3.

I would probably roll my eyes at anyone that tried to pull this in a game, but I don't think I'd fight it that hard.

No, now it means you look at the model to determine the type of power weapon it is equipped with.

But the model isn't actually equipped with a power weapon, it just 'count as' equipped. I don't think it's justifiable to use rules for a power maul or axe.

With that said, I do realize that it's a grey area and I'm not really interested in a 5 page debate on what 'counts as' actually means. I would allow my opponent to use the rule the way you're describing, but not without a certain amount of eye-rolling.

The only problem with that is what power weapon does he "count as" having? It has no additional special rules, so we can't just rule that he has an unusual power weapon.

Well, we'll just have to wait till GW releases an FAQ, or debate further.

SCvodimier wrote:

undertow wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

undertow wrote:I don't think I agree with this. The text says 'the Daemon counts as armed with a power weapon'. At the time this was written, that only meant that CC attacks ignored armor. Now it means they are AP3.

I would probably roll my eyes at anyone that tried to pull this in a game, but I don't think I'd fight it that hard.

No, now it means you look at the model to determine the type of power weapon it is equipped with.

But the model isn't actually equipped with a power weapon, it just 'count as' equipped. I don't think it's justifiable to use rules for a power maul or axe.

With that said, I do realize that it's a grey area and I'm not really interested in a 5 page debate on what 'counts as' actually means. I would allow my opponent to use the rule the way you're describing, but not without a certain amount of eye-rolling.

The only problem with that is what power weapon does he "count as" having? It has no additional special rules, so we can't just rule that he has an unusual power weapon.

Actually, the BRB says to look at the weapon. If it looks like sword/dagger, then it counts as a power sword. If it looks like an axe/halberd, then it's a power axe. If it looks like a spear/lance, then it's a power lance. And if it looks like a mace or staff (or any other blunt weapon), then it counts as a power maul.

So by RAW, soul devourer on chaos daemon FMc's have just gotten much, much better.

jy2 wrote:

SCvodimier wrote:

undertow wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

undertow wrote:I don't think I agree with this. The text says 'the Daemon counts as armed with a power weapon'. At the time this was written, that only meant that CC attacks ignored armor. Now it means they are AP3.

I would probably roll my eyes at anyone that tried to pull this in a game, but I don't think I'd fight it that hard.

No, now it means you look at the model to determine the type of power weapon it is equipped with.

But the model isn't actually equipped with a power weapon, it just 'count as' equipped. I don't think it's justifiable to use rules for a power maul or axe.

With that said, I do realize that it's a grey area and I'm not really interested in a 5 page debate on what 'counts as' actually means. I would allow my opponent to use the rule the way you're describing, but not without a certain amount of eye-rolling.

The only problem with that is what power weapon does he "count as" having? It has no additional special rules, so we can't just rule that he has an unusual power weapon.

Actually, the BRB says to look at the weapon. If it looks like sword/dagger, then it counts as a power sword. If it looks like an axe/halberd, then it's a power axe. If it looks like a spear/lance, then it's a power lance. And if it looks like a mace or staff (or any other blunt weapon), then it counts as a power maul.

So by RAW, soul devourer on chaos daemon FMc's have just gotten much, much better.

Yes, my question was in response to him just saying "it counts as a power weapon, that's it"

I'd love to see a FAQ on this and many other issues. In the meantime, I'm happy to play it the way everyone seems to be interpreting the rule. I run Fateweaver, so +2 S would be nice on him.

Assuming that Soul Devourer lets us use the weapon as modeled, does the +2 S from having a power maul apply to Vector Strikes? I would say no, as it's a modifier.

blood reaper wrote:Yes, there are four types of Power Weapon, Hal-Bard, Lance, Sword and Axe.

Types of Power Weapons
Power weapons come in all shapes and sizes, but for the purposes of our game, we have four simple categories of power weapons: power axes, power mauls, power swords and power lances.

Also, it's spelled "Halberd"

rigeld2 wrote:Also, it's spelled "Halberd"

Next you are going to tell me it's spelled Monkey, not Mon-Keigh.

Just kidding, I know the proper spelling is F-O-O-D.

rigeld2 wrote:

blood reaper wrote:Yes, there are four types of Power Weapon, Hal-Bard, Lance, Sword and Axe.

Types of Power Weapons
Power weapons come in all shapes and sizes, but for the purposes of our game, we have four simple categories of power weapons: power axes, power mauls, power swords and power lances.

Also, it's spelled "Halberd"

My spell checker seems to not recognize it, I have no idea why.

undertow wrote:I'd love to see a FAQ on this and many other issues. In the meantime, I'm happy to play it the way everyone seems to be interpreting the rule. I run Fateweaver, so +2 S would be nice on him.

Assuming that Soul Devourer lets us use the weapon as modeled, does the +2 S from having a power maul apply to Vector Strikes? I would say no, as it's a modifier.

Yeah, it seems kind of cheesy to me, and I wouldn't play it as such if my opponent wasn't comfortable with it.

I'd probably say no to vector strikes as well, but here's something that bothers me...does Unholy Might not apply as well?

Yeah, because if it is, DP's are strength 8....

Considering MCs are AP2 by default, RAW this actually makes them AP3 and is therefore a pretty heft nerf.

Testify wrote:Considering MCs are AP2 by default, RAW this actually makes them AP3 and is therefore a pretty heft nerf.

Wrong. Smash overrides any special weapon AP unless it's AP1.

All of the close combat attacks, except Hammer of Wrath Attacks, of a model with this special rule are resolved at AP2 (unless it's attacking with an AP1 weapon).

jy2 wrote:

undertow wrote:I'd love to see a FAQ on this and many other issues. In the meantime, I'm happy to play it the way everyone seems to be interpreting the rule. I run Fateweaver, so +2 S would be nice on him.

Assuming that Soul Devourer lets us use the weapon as modeled, does the +2 S from having a power maul apply to Vector Strikes? I would say no, as it's a modifier.

Yeah, it seems kind of cheesy to me, and I wouldn't play it as such if my opponent wasn't comfortable with it.

I'd probably say no to vector strikes as well, but here's something that bothers me...does Unholy Might not apply as well?

I've been playing that it does affect it, because it's a change to the model's statline that it permanent. Things like Furious Charge wouldn't apply.

I'm happy to be proved wrong on this however.

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:Considering MCs are AP2 by default, RAW this actually makes them AP3 and is therefore a pretty heft nerf.

Wrong. Smash overrides any special weapon AP unless it's AP1.

All of the close combat attacks, except Hammer of Wrath Attacks, of a model with this special rule are resolved at AP2 (unless it's attacking with an AP1 weapon).

That explains why people were trying to claim Lord of Change essentially gets +2 strength for free.

undertow wrote:

jy2 wrote:

undertow wrote:I'd love to see a FAQ on this and many other issues. In the meantime, I'm happy to play it the way everyone seems to be interpreting the rule. I run Fateweaver, so +2 S would be nice on him.

Assuming that Soul Devourer lets us use the weapon as modeled, does the +2 S from having a power maul apply to Vector Strikes? I would say no, as it's a modifier.

Yeah, it seems kind of cheesy to me, and I wouldn't play it as such if my opponent wasn't comfortable with it.

I'd probably say no to vector strikes as well, but here's something that bothers me...does Unholy Might not apply as well?

I've been playing that it does affect it, because it's a change to the model's statline that it permanent. Things like Furious Charge wouldn't apply.

I'm happy to be proved wrong on this however.

Yeah, that's my thinking as well.

Permanent changes, like Unholy Might and Soul Devourer, should count towards vector strike because it basically makes their stat permanent.

However, temporary modifiers like Smash, Furious Charge, psychic power Iron Arm, etc. should not count.

However, it is not quite crystal clear and will need a FAQ IMO.

Testify wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:Considering MCs are AP2 by default, RAW this actually makes them AP3 and is therefore a pretty heft nerf.

Wrong. Smash overrides any special weapon AP unless it's AP1.

All of the close combat attacks, except Hammer of Wrath Attacks, of a model with this special rule are resolved at AP2 (unless it's attacking with an AP1 weapon).

That explains why people were trying to claim Lord of Change essentially gets +2 strength for free.

Don't forget concussive.

Yeah, it may seem cheesy, but it's something people are going to have to get used to as they transition from 5E to 6E....that some units do get intentionally buffed and others (i.e. khorne units with hellblades) get nerfed.

So, what is the verdict for Soul Devourer on a Herald?

My guess is that people would have no problem applying this as an unusual power weapon because it is a "normal" sized model. If it applies to the Herald, it should apply to the LoC.

But you can't just call it an unusual power weapon, because soul devour has no other special rules beyond being a power weapon. If you are fine with str as User ap3, then just say it's a power sword.

Green is Best! wrote:So, what is the verdict for Soul Devourer on a Herald?

My guess is that people would have no problem applying this as an unusual power weapon because it is a "normal" sized model. If it applies to the Herald, it should apply to the LoC.

Soul Devourer "counts as" a power weapon. It's actually impossible to model it onto a model so it can be whatever you like.

Testify wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:So, what is the verdict for Soul Devourer on a Herald?

My guess is that people would have no problem applying this as an unusual power weapon because it is a "normal" sized model. If it applies to the Herald, it should apply to the LoC.

Soul Devourer "counts as" a power weapon. It's actually impossible to model it onto a model so it can be whatever you like.

Right, but I assume the argument is that 'counts as' means 'uses all the rules for'. And since the Lord of Change and Fateweaver are each armed with a staff, then it uses the rules for a power maul. It's a bit sketchy, but this way seems to be the way the majority of posters are interpreting this to work.

In any event, like so much in this game, it's just about impossible to make a clear cut decision about this. There is simply too much ambiguity in the rules.

undertow wrote:

Testify wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:So, what is the verdict for Soul Devourer on a Herald?

My guess is that people would have no problem applying this as an unusual power weapon because it is a "normal" sized model. If it applies to the Herald, it should apply to the LoC.

Soul Devourer "counts as" a power weapon. It's actually impossible to model it onto a model so it can be whatever you like.

Right, but I assume the argument is that 'counts as' means 'uses all the rules for'. And since the Lord of Change and Fateweaver are each armed with a staff, then it uses the rules for a power maul. It's a bit sketchy, but this way seems to be the way the majority of posters are interpreting this to work.

In any event, like so much in this game, it's just about impossible to make a clear cut decision about this. There is simply too much ambiguity in the rules.

They're not holding a weapon though, what they're holding is pure decoration. The rule explicitly states "counts as a power weapon", not "wielding a power weapon". It was 5th edition shorthand for "this dude's attacks ignore armour saves". Since that's no longer the case, you can probably pick whichever one you like as long as you tell your opponent during set-up.

It counts as a power weapon, that also causes leadership tests on unsaved wounds to cause instant death.

The Soul Devourer has special rules for close combat.

You can't just take the sentence about it counting as a power weapon and ignore the other rules associated with that.

As it has special rules, you can never look at the model to decide what it is.

If that is true, I redact my previous statement of looking at the model. I was only going off of what the OP stated.