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Hey guys,

So I just played a game of 6th edition with my 1500 pt Ork list at it did TERRIBLE. BY the end of turn 3 I was virtually out of the game and by turn 4 we just called it bc there was no point continuing. I was playing against a very shooty heavy guard list (aren't they all?) with very few vehicles, loads of infantry blobs (2x 30 iirc) supported by a Leman Russ and command squad each. He had a unit of autocannons behind as well, and had Marbo in reserve. Then he used a squad of Grey Knight terminator with an Inquisitor as allies, as well as a vindicare assassin.

I generally play a mek list of Orks. 3 deff dreads, 2 units of 20 shoota boyz with a KFF big Mek in each, a battlewagon full of burnas and a looted wagon (sometimes) Sometimes I add in a 4th deff dred. I also use two outflanking TL rokkit deffkoptaz to try and pop the leman russ tanks ASAP.

We got the Hammer and Anvil setup (which was bad for me) and my guys ended up blobbed into nice little packets to be destroyed by the Leman Russ tanks, while his whole army was at the back of the table waiting for me to get the objectives. On turn one he destroyed my battlewagon and looted wagon wit his autocannons and vindicare (he rolled well but not unreasonably well) and took a hull point off a dread. My whole army was now slow and barely got halfway across the table before it was shot into an unrecognizable paste. I don't think I even crossed the midline of the table before we called the game as a loss for me. His vindicare also blew up another dread and his lasguns with "First rank fir, second rank fire" tore up my boyz as they got close, the KFF barely saving anyone. Removing from the front left my boyz advancing about 7" at max per turn, with a good run roll.

The ONLY thign that performed reasonably well were the deffkoptaz which outflanked and destoryed one tank, blew the battlecannon off the other, and then took out his autocannon teams, which had been peppering the hull points off of my deff dreads with ease.

In total I think I killed about 300 points worth of guard and more than 60% of my army was destroyed, barely able to even hold one objective.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but I need some help. I LOVE all of my deff dread models, but I feel that dreadnoughts are just terrible now. Even in my Dark Angels list all they do is get glanced by weak little autocannon shots etc and die in one turn. Also, any form of speed my army had gets glanced to death as well, as most armor in Orks is aroudn 12 (except BWs but even they have meh side and bad rear armor). As such, I am at a loss for what to do. I really want to keep my deff dreads but as they are so slow and die almost instantly I can't justify it in any way, except for flavor's sake. The only options I see to combat my opponents (mainly IG and Space Wolves) are to do a huge horde of shootaz (around 4 squads of 20) supported by some DakkaJets, deffkoptaz, and maybe some dreads of some kind. OR I would use a mostly mechanized list and get 3 BWs with 19 boyz + Big Meks, then one with 20 shootaz. Then have some additional trukks in front carrying boyz, or use some DakkaJets and koptaz to keep up to speed. The problem is that I do not particularly fancy this type of list, except for the BWs, as it doesn't fit well with the flavor of my army background etc.

Again, sorry for the ranting. Any help is appreciated.

-VardenV2

I'm in a similar boat, because I have a foot IG friend myself.

Well, first things first:

40 Boyz at 1500? You need some more.

You don't need 2 Big Meks, do you? 1 is usually plenty.

Perhaps some speed? Dreads are slow and infamous for dying before getting into the fray. BW's are great, especially in 6th and especially loaded with dakka (Big Shootas and a Kannon, but NOT a Kilkannon for this).

Got bosspoles? They help.

Deffkoptas are great for anti-tank/disruption.

Basically, you need to stick your boyz in an armored shell and shoot them up the board.

Hope that helps!

I would drop the dreads and add some lootas and more shoota boys consider Nobz on bikes or in a BW to get em where the need to go. Remember with the lootas that they can go to ground and still shoot with snap fire if your opponent focuses them. Even if they get reduced to being useless they can draw all the fire from the rest of your army. The dakkajet or two could also be a good addition. I would keep the burna boys as they can be devastating. Also remember your burna boys and lootas can have one or two converted to mekboys to repair a BW they are in.

Dr. What wrote:I'm in a similar boat, because I have a foot IG friend myself.

Well, first things first:

40 Boyz at 1500? You need some more.

You don't need 2 Big Meks, do you? 1 is usually plenty.

Perhaps some speed? Dreads are slow and infamous for dying before getting into the fray. BW's are great, especially in 6th and especially loaded with dakka (Big Shootas and a Kannon, but NOT a Kilkannon for this).

Got bosspoles? They help.

Deffkoptas are great for anti-tank/disruption.

Basically, you need to stick your boyz in an armored shell and shoot them up the board.

Hope that helps!

Well, the two Big Meks was usually to create two mirrored units, blanket my whole army in 5+ saves (better in 5th for my deff dreads) and stay in cotact with the dreads as they marched around to repair them etc, in addition to the riggers.

I feel that the general concensus is to scrap the dreads (which makes me incredibly sad but w/e, they are still cool models, and I'll use them in Apoc with my stompa hehe) and replace those points with BW (which is cool I guess). I LOVE my burna wagon when it works. Burnaz are pretty nasty, especially as a charge deterrent. I put a killcannon on my wagon sometimes just for kicks and to support my shoota boyz but I'm thinking of dropping it and replacing it with a butt ton of big shootaz to carry my shoota boyz in. Then have a final BW as either a shooty wagon with Lootaz and a killcannon, or to use with a butt ton of big shootas and include my burnaz in it (maybe even get up to 15 and put a Big Mek with them?)

I put bosspoles on all my Nobz in the shoota boy squads.

I like the idea of having a flying escort for my BWs as they charge up. Some disruption from the Dakkajets and koptaz could definitely help disrupt. Also, I'm looking to expand up to 1750 with my Orks as well. Perhaps take a unit or two of standing lootaz? And maybe scrap the koptaz for a total of 3 dakka jets?

My "Armored shell" was usually the KFF but now it just seems a little lackluster (although a decent counter to focus fire). So i guess actual armor is the way to go. The problem is that with my wagons being there, EVERYTHING will focus them down, especially with orders. Also, as soon as I take them, my friend will just include 3 more autocannon or missile launcher squads to kill them and remove his allies most likely... sigh...

-WAAGH!

Agree with Dr. What - your model count is too low. Getting blown off the table is a pretty clear indication of this.

You two suggest solutions look great to me. Take your mixed army and make it more focused, battlewagons still have no business being in footslogging armies - a burna wagon is only good as long as there are other battlewagons around. As single AV14 vehicle is simply a target. Replace those burnaz with lootaz and drop the wagon, and you should already see an improvement.
If you go all battlewagons trukks should be behind them though, not in front of them
You might also want to consider burna bommers, they are ridiculously good against any non-MEQ armies, due to the amount of AP4 shooting the lay down. A well-aimed bomb or two, plus the missiles and shootas will rapidly shrink those blobs.

Either way, three or even four dreads are too much for 1500. Any more than two is simply too expensive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and never use the killkannon. It's probably the single worst upgrade in our codex - it would be ok at half the cost, but absolutely nothing justifies 60 points for such a weak gun.

Jidmah wrote:Agree with Dr. What - your model count is too low. Getting blown off the table is a pretty clear indication of this.

You two suggest solutions look great to me. Take your mixed army and make it more focused, battlewagons still have no business being in footslogging armies - a burna wagon is only good as long as there are other battlewagons around. As single AV14 vehicle is simply a target. Replace those burnaz with lootaz and drop the wagon, and you should already see an improvement.
If you go all battlewagons trukks should be behind them though, not in front of them
You might also want to consider burna bommers, they are ridiculously good against any non-MEQ armies, due to the amount of AP4 shooting the lay down. A well-aimed bomb or two, plus the missiles and shootas will rapidly shrink those blobs.

Either way, three or even four dreads are too much for 1500. Any more than two is simply too expensive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and never use the killkannon. It's probably the single worst upgrade in our codex - it would be ok at half the cost, but absolutely nothing justifies 60 points for such a weak gun.

Why is the Killkannon that bad? Isn't it a giant plasma template basically? I thought it would be totally worth it against terminator wolves (which my friend uses heavily), especially now that I can focus it to nerf his potential for cover saves etc. Regardless, I could just say the turret is a kannon that looks cool (it's pretty easy to use as a proxy for w/e with my friends).

Also, I LOVE the burna bomma, as the main things i'd be fighting are gaurd (which it OWNS) and Space Wolf terminators (which would mostly be immune to any AP values). Maybe I'll even use a mix of burna bomma + 2 dakka jets? the themes of my army are rust, fire, and mechanical kontraptions (why I use lots of dreads and a stompa etc). The burna bomma fits all of those perfectly I feel haha.

So it seems like the BWs (which still fit the themes of my army) are a great addition, as well as the jets. Now what should the wagons contain? 19 boyz + big mek, then one of 20? for a total of 58 boyz, two KFFs and have them all be zooming forward iring big shootas while the bommas swoop in? Then should I throw in some lootaz in the rear for support? Or maybe a trukk or two with 12x 'ard boy shootaz? I like the feel and look of shoota boyz better anyway.

-WAAGH!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, Killkannon is AP3... yeah that's not as good as I thought. Nevermind, that's totally getting scrapped haha. Keep them wagons cheap! haha

-Waagh!

If it were a giant plasma blast, I'd be right with you.

I pretty much run 3-4 weagons plus three planes at 2000 points, so far it's working pretty well for me. One bommer and two jets is probably the way to go, but I haven't done extensive testing on all possible combinations yet. At lower point levels I usually take one of each.

Lootaz are a must, with their new mobility they have become such an awesome unit, that I wouldn't want to miss having at least one big unit of them.

Ok, so from what I can tell, the problems you're having are:

Can't destroy armour at range (i.e. the Leman Russes)

Single Battlewagon is an obvious target

Army is slow

Orks have always struggled with AV14. The only real solutions are Klaws and Deff Rollas. However, now you can add allies, have you considered brining along some Imperial Guard of your own? Or Tau? Or Necrons? All have effective anti-tank firepower (meltas in chimeras / squad heavy weapons for guard, crisis suits with missile pods and broadsides for tau, Doom Scythe and Gauss weapons for Necrons).

Alternatively, get two more battlewagons with deff rollas. Mek with KFF in the centre one, fill with boys and roll forwards and crush everything. This helps with your single battle-wagon and speed problem too.

Or, Nob Bikers led by a warboss are really killy now, as all nobs are characters. Couple of power klaws, turbo boost first turn, and you'll annihilate anything with them.

tau are excellent addition to orks. get a team of broadsides some cheapo kroot or firewarrios and a commander for anti tank

I use eldar as allies because they are what I have model wise and a wraithlord armed with eldar missile launcher and brightlance plus eldrad or avatar, a troop unit of guardian jet bikes and some harliquins are a nie addition to an ork list

as ffar as your ork list it is kinda in alot of different directions. it would fit a marine player better where each unit was more survivable. as orks we (due to lwo points cost) do spam better than anybody ig usually fold like a house of cards when hit and a unit of nob bikers only gets instagibbed with str 10 so warboss on a bike plus nob bikers to an ork player really is the new hotness

either mek up or all footslog still holds true outside of bikes. burna wagons are awesome but they are metal front wodden sides and papermache in the back. iv you can drop the dreds and put some boys in a bw you'll have a better chance of geting there. also as stated drop to one big mek w/ kff and note deffkotas as they cna't outflank and assault the turn they come in uysually will get shot down the turn they some in by most players

I think it's worth noting a few things.

1) KFF got nerfed
2) hull points
3) a lack of the damage results on glancing rolls means grot oilers and armor plates are slightly less valuable
4) Deff Dreads are not very mobile. Having no option for a droppod means you're walking. Slowly.

Orks have a really hard time with very shooty armies it seems so Tau, guard, etc. down Orks pretty easily. You will have an uphill battle against this army.

You definitely need more model and better anti-tank though. That will help considerably.

If you know you will be going against highly shooty armies, then you'll need to start changing your lists a bit. Foot sloggers are going to have a hell of a time with them. More so than in 5th.

Ok thank you all for the comments! I wrote up a quick little list last night with an idea for a pretty bad a** sounding list, model wise and tactics wise that will let me use the models I still have (some of them) and have to buy about half of the new ones (but more boyz never hurts hehe). Here is the link to the lists:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/463934.page

If you have any comments on the list, I'd appreciate a few in the army list page so I can update with some revised costs etc.

Right now I am struggling with choosing my HQ number. Two Big Meks with KFF seems overkill at 1500 perhaps but if I expand to 1750 I may be worth keeping. Also, If I get more trukks having the extra KFFs increases my bubble, no?

Thanks again for all your comments and suggestions

-WAAGH!