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Here is an interesting situation:

Lets say typical Blood Angels player is hiding a squad of Assault Marines behind a predator, out of line of sight.

Enemy marine player has a devastator squad that can see the predator but cannot see the assault marines behind it.

Enemy marine player fires plasma cannons at the predator hoping to glance it to death, plasma cannon scatters onto the assault marines behind the predator.

Rule book says page 33:, blast weapons can hit and would other models out of line of sight and range if it scatters.

Rule book also says, once hits and wounds are resolved, allocate them as per a normal shooting attack.

Normal shooting attacks, cannot be allocated to models out of line of sight.

So the question is: Do you hit, roll to wound as normal, but cannot allocate to the Assault marines? so nothing dies?

Or do the marines still get boned by the plasma cannon?

EDIT: BEFORE POSTING: Please read -
Page 16 of rulebook - wound allocation to models out of line of sight
Page 33 of rulebook - blast weapons

Marines get boned, but they certainly get cover.

The blast rules make it clear. Those boys get a poor cover save and burn.

Actually if you look under blast templates specifically in the barrage explanations I believe, It states that LoS and cover saves are taken from the hole of the blast marker. IE if they aren't in area terrain or something, they don't even gain the cover save.

icefire78 wrote:Actually if you look under blast templates specifically in the barrage explanations I believe, It states that LoS and cover saves are taken from the hole of the blast marker. IE if they aren't in area terrain or something, they don't even gain the cover save.

Where is that?

give me a sec will get a page number up. We came across it while trying to figure out if indirect fire scatters on a hit. Oddly enough it doesn't now

icefire78 wrote:Actually if you look under blast templates specifically in the barrage explanations I believe, It states that LoS and cover saves are taken from the hole of the blast marker. IE if they aren't in area terrain or something, they don't even gain the cover save.

This is true of barrage weapons, but not all blast weapons.

-Normal blast weapons require line of sight from the shooter and grant cover to match.

-Barrage weapons don't require line of sight (though you don't reduce scatter by your BS if you don't have LoS) and cover is determined from the hole of the blast marker, like he said.

In this hypothetical case, the weapons being used are plasma cannons, which are normal blast, meaning that the assault marines are indeed hit, and get a cover save, likely 4+ I'd say.

Sorry, the wound coming from the hole only applies to barrage weapons, still quite a bonus for guardsmen. Exactly Leonus

Assault marines are safe. If the cannon touches 5, you'd roll to wound. Then you cannot apply any wounds as none of the marines are in line of sight.

You fullfilled all the rules. Hits are properly counted, rolls to wound are made, and none are applied, as per line of sight and wounding rules.

So what does that out of LOS blasts do?
Lets say you have 15 orks hiding behind a trukk. 10 are totally out of sight, and 5 can be seen. Plasma Cannon shot scatters out of LOS and touches 7 orks.
7 rolls to wound are made, and the wound pool is applied as normal to the closest model in line of sight.
With the majority of the unit behind an interveining unit (trukk) the boyz would get a 5+ cover, unless plasma cannon had declared focus fire on boyz in the open.

Even though the template "Hit" models out of sight, the wounds are still processed as normal.



Barrage weapons, on the other hand, force wounds to be applied closest to the center hole, and do not require LOS.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
With the majority of the unit behind an interveining unit (trukk) the boyz would get a 5+ cover, unless plasma cannon had declared focus fire on boyz in the open.

Even though the template "Hit" models out of sight, the wounds are still processed as normal.

No more majority cover in 6th edition, each model's cover is determined individually.

So, hitting seven orks out of LOS results in the five orks in the open dying without a cover save.

Hawaii - you have permission to wound models out of LOS, if the blast scatters.

Actually nos, since you allocate wounds as normal, per the normal Shooting rules, once a unit is no longer in LoS, any remaining Wounds are lost. So if the unit is completely out of LoS, a scattered blast technically cannot wound the unit. Unless it is a barrage weapon of course.

It specifically states under the Blast rules that it can scatter beyong the weapons maximum range or minimum range and line of sight. It goes on to state that "In these cases, hits are worked out as normal AND CAN HIT AND WOUND UNITS OUT OF RANGE AND LINE OF SIGHT. (first paragraph on upper right corner of p.33)

Its clear. If it scatters out of LoS, treat it exactly as you would as if you had LoS, and it's also clear that since it states it CAN wound, then they overwrite the normal rules for shooting where you DO need to be in LoS. Its clearly an exception for Blasts type weapons.

Tjolle79 wrote:It specifically states under the Blast rules that it can scatter beyong the weapons maximum range or minimum range and line of sight. It goes on to state that "In these cases, hits are worked out as normal AND CAN HIT AND WOUND UNITS OUT OF RANGE AND LINE OF SIGHT. (first paragraph on upper right corner of p.33)

Its clear. If it scatters out of LoS, treat it exactly as you would as if you had LoS, and it's also clear that since it states it CAN wound, then they overwrite the normal rules for shooting where you DO need to be in LoS. Its clearly an exception for Blasts type weapons.

Except that the rest of the rule reads:
Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll to wound and save as normal. Any unsaved wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack.

So how do you allocate wounds to a unit using the normal shooting attack rules?
Apply them to the closest model in line of sight. Once all models in line of sight are dead, the rest are lost.

All the blast rules allow for is hits to be generated on models not in sight, but failed saves are applied as normal to models in line of sight. The blast rules do not tell you to resolve the wounds against the models under the blast. It tells you to roll to wound and save as normal, and apply wounds as if normal shooting.

-Matt

Line of sight only applies to hitting. Once you are hit wounding has nothing to do with los.

Captain Antivas wrote:Line of sight only applies to hitting. Once you are hit wounding has nothing to do with los.

False. Read the 6th edition wound allocation rules please.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Tjolle79 wrote:It specifically states under the Blast rules that it can scatter beyong the weapons maximum range or minimum range and line of sight. It goes on to state that "In these cases, hits are worked out as normal AND CAN HIT AND WOUND UNITS OUT OF RANGE AND LINE OF SIGHT. (first paragraph on upper right corner of p.33)

Its clear. If it scatters out of LoS, treat it exactly as you would as if you had LoS, and it's also clear that since it states it CAN wound, then they overwrite the normal rules for shooting where you DO need to be in LoS. Its clearly an exception for Blasts type weapons.

Except that the rest of the rule reads:
Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll to wound and save as normal. Any unsaved wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack.

So how do you allocate wounds to a unit using the normal shooting attack rules?
Apply them to the closest model in line of sight. Once all models in line of sight are dead, the rest are lost.

All the blast rules allow for is hits to be generated on models not in sight, but failed saves are applied as normal to models in line of sight. The blast rules do not tell you to resolve the wounds against the models under the blast. It tells you to roll to wound and save as normal, and apply wounds as if normal shooting.

-Matt

Matt,

I totally agree with your assessment except for the fact that GW wrote that blasts that scatter can hit and wound UNITS (not models) out of line of sight.

Shooting attacks cannot normally hit or wound units completely out of line of sight, so once that restriction out of the window I think you have to allow it.

IMHO, the rule does not have a clear RAW path to follow for the reasons you highlighted. Therefore my 'best guess' house rule is as follows:

Blasts that are on target (don't scatter) follow all the normal rules for casualty removal.
Blasts that scatter, but end up hitting units that are still within range & LOS of the firing unit are still resolved normally, allocating wounds to models in the target unit that are within LOS of at least one firing model.
Blasts that scatter and end up hitting units completely out of range & LOS of the firing unit are resolved as normal, but ignoring the usual restrictions for range & LOS.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Tjolle79 wrote:It specifically states under the Blast rules that it can scatter beyong the weapons maximum range or minimum range and line of sight. It goes on to state that "In these cases, hits are worked out as normal AND CAN HIT AND WOUND UNITS OUT OF RANGE AND LINE OF SIGHT. (first paragraph on upper right corner of p.33)

Its clear. If it scatters out of LoS, treat it exactly as you would as if you had LoS, and it's also clear that since it states it CAN wound, then they overwrite the normal rules for shooting where you DO need to be in LoS. Its clearly an exception for Blasts type weapons.

Except that the rest of the rule reads:
Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll to wound and save as normal. Any unsaved wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack.

So how do you allocate wounds to a unit using the normal shooting attack rules?
Apply them to the closest model in line of sight. Once all models in line of sight are dead, the rest are lost.

All the blast rules allow for is hits to be generated on models not in sight, but failed saves are applied as normal to models in line of sight. The blast rules do not tell you to resolve the wounds against the models under the blast. It tells you to roll to wound and save as normal, and apply wounds as if normal shooting.

-Matt

The normal shooting rules for to-hit and to wound as that you compare S vs T (usually) and AP vs Save etc. After that you allocate wounds. NORMALLY you cant allocate wounds to models that are not in LoS from the firing model. The Blast weapon specifically states that you CAN wound them even though they're not in LoS. This clearly states that the usual restriction of wound allocations for models outside of LoS is ignored.

Some people are confusing blasts with barrages... Plasma cannons are a direct fire weapon that explodes, not a manticore that drops missiles from the sky.

It is failry clear which is which in the rule book and in the OP.

Jacko4smackos wrote:Some people are confusing blasts with barrages... Plasma cannons are a direct fire weapon that explodes, not a manticore that drops missiles from the sky.

The information listed by Tjolle is straight from the Blasts section of the rules. Not barrage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:Line of sight only applies to hitting. Once you are hit wounding has nothing to do with los.

False. Read the 6th edition wound allocation rules please.

I should rephrase. Since the rules for Blasts says that it can hit and wound units out of LOS then wounding has nothing to do with LOS anymore.

Wounding happens before saves are taken, and successful wounding puts dice into the wounding pool.
Below is a little lengthy, but I think it's right.
I've numbered the steps to keep the sequence strait and make it easy to reference how blasts interact with normal shooting rules.
Please point out where in the process I've mistaken, if I'm wrong, because this seems to make sense.


Let me walk through the shooting process, now that I'm at home with my rulebook. This is basic shooting process.

Starting on page 12.
1) Who can shoot. (can't run or be in melee)
2) Line of sight, one model in the firing unit must be able to see at least 1 enemy in the target unit.
3)In Range
4)Which MODELS can fire, those in range and LoS.
5) Roll to hit.
6) Roll to Wound.
7) Wounding pool; group successful wounds into pools based on AP, Strength and Special Rules (like instant Death).
8) Allocate Wounds and remove casualties.
8a Take saves
8b Apply Failed Saves to closest model
8c Remove models

Ok, that takes us up to page 15.

Then we get a curve ball on 16.
OUT OF SIGHT: If nobody in the shooting unit can see a model, you can't allocate wounds to him. If you can't see any remaining models, the remaining wounds in the wound pool (My #7) are lost.

So where do blasts influence this normal process?
Page33
On a scatter that goes out of line of sight, can hit and wound models out of line of sight (normally disallowed in step 2).
Then it says For each model partially or fully under the template the unit suffers 1 hit (which replaces the normal process for 5).
Once the number of hits as been worked out, roll to wound and save as normal, so Steps 6,7 and 8 would process normally.
The scatter tells us we get hits not normally allowed, and once they are generated, we then apply them as normal.

If you apply wounds as normal, you'll be discarding the remaining wound pool once no models in the shooting unit can draw line of sight to models in the target unit.



-Matt

What would be the point of saying blast weapons can hit units out of line of sight if they cannot wound them? Don't try to rules lawyer so hard. If it can hit units out of sight obviously (a rare case where "obviously" is not an exaggeration) it is supposed to be able to wound said units.
Have fun trying to pull this stuff during an actual game. You'll run out of friends real quick.

It says you get hits AND wounds not normally allowed in the Normal method for allocating wounds. You can't choose 1 part of the rule to interpret then go on and quote rules and factor in things like LoS since its no longer valid, because its cancelled out by the Blast rule. Which is why im done with this discussion from now on.

Tjolle79 wrote:It says you get hits AND wounds not normally allowed in the Normal method for allocating wounds. You can't choose 1 part of the rule to interpret then go on and quote rules and factor in things like LoS since its no longer valid, because its cancelled out by the Blast rule. Which is why im done with this discussion from now on.

You're missing the Blast special rules:
"Note that it is possible, and absolutely fine, for a shot to scatter beyond the weapon'smaximum or minimum range and line of sight. [Snip fluff]. In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight." (pg 33)
I do realise that Blasts has the "Any unsaved Wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack." (pg 33) in the end, but the previous paragraph obviously does override the 'Wounds can only be allocated to models in LOS' part of the normal shooting rules, assuming that the blast scatters.

Fafnir13 wrote:What would be the point of saying blast weapons can hit units out of line of sight if they cannot wound them? Don't try to rules lawyer so hard. If it can hit units out of sight obviously (a rare case where "obviously" is not an exaggeration) it is supposed to be able to wound said units.
Have fun trying to pull this stuff during an actual game. You'll run out of friends real quick.

Ah yes, outlining rules and asking for where I've made a mistake is "rules lawyering".

So how does a plasma cannon kill something THAT THE PLASMA CANNOT SEE?
Easy.
Line of sight from the shooter is determined model by model.
The wounding pool is assigned by line of sight from my whole unit.

Example 1
Lets say you have a company command squad, hiding behind a chimmera.
Lets say I have a devistator squad with a plasma cannon in a ruin, with the plasma cannon on the base floor, and bolter marines on the 2nd and 3rd story.
My plasma shot scatters behind the chimmera and tags the company command, outside of the plasma cannons range and line of sight.
Hits are generate, rolls are made to wound, as per blast rules.
Models in my unit can see your company command, so the wounding pool is fully used. The devistator marine in the top story is coordinating the shots to his squadmates below.

Example 2
Company command 2.0 is afraid of getting PC'd to death. They get out the back of the chimmera, using it to block line of sight to the base level of the ruins where the cannons are dug in.
The Company command unloads a hail of plasma fire from the 4 plasmaguns and kill off the marines on the upper floors (as the lower floor models cannot be seen, and cannot be allocated to).
Chimmera dumps in it's 6 shots for good measure.
Marines return firing, with a plasma cannon shot scattering out of sight and onto the company command. With no devistator being able to draw line of sight, the wound pool is dumped.

Tactically, being large and spread out gives you a better kill box.
But, being large and spread out lets opponents snipe off portions of your unit with line of sight blocking tactics.

You are specifically told you can wound (little w) units out of LOS, meaning you DO have permission to cause a model out of LOS to be "wounded" - meaning a wound being allocated.

....................... o o o O O O O
...................... o o o o O O O
............. ____________
............. | |
............. | ___________|



....................................() () ()

o and O are the unit being shot at
() are the unit shooting
___
|___| line of site blocking, eg, tank

Say the shot scatters off the tank and hits all unit members 'o'. Usually, the blast wouldn't hit anuone out of LOS, but because of the blast rules. we are allowed to hit and wound. If all wounds are successful, we then allocate the wounds that we were allowed to cause onto the models closedt and in line of sight, so all the unit members O will be removed

Now look at this case

..............o o o o o
................o o o o o
.............. ____________
............. | |
............. | ___________|


.......................() () ()

Say the blast scatters and hits 5 models, we roll to wound and all are succesful, we are only allowed to roll to wound because of the blast rules as they are out of LOS. We then follow normal wound allocation, we have been allowed to wound the models, but the wound caused must still go to modeld in LOS, there are none so although wounds are caused, no wounds are allocated

I would say the being able to hit/wound models out of line of sight dealing with units with both models in and out of LOS. You can hit the models out of LOS, but the models in LOS die, if there are no models in LOS, no one dies

EDIT: Not the best diagrams but you should get the idea :/

interesting discussion, seems like there is no clear answer yet

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Fafnir13 wrote:What would be the point of saying blast weapons can hit units out of line of sight if they cannot wound them? Don't try to rules lawyer so hard. If it can hit units out of sight obviously (a rare case where "obviously" is not an exaggeration) it is supposed to be able to wound said units.
Have fun trying to pull this stuff during an actual game. You'll run out of friends real quick.

Ah yes, outlining rules and asking for where I've made a mistake is "rules lawyering".

So how does a plasma cannon kill something THAT THE PLASMA CANNOT SEE?
Easy.
Line of sight from the shooter is determined model by model.
The wounding pool is assigned by line of sight from my whole unit.

Example 1
Lets say you have a company command squad, hiding behind a chimmera.
Lets say I have a devistator squad with a plasma cannon in a ruin, with the plasma cannon on the base floor, and bolter marines on the 2nd and 3rd story.
My plasma shot scatters behind the chimmera and tags the company command, outside of the plasma cannons range and line of sight.
Hits are generate, rolls are made to wound, as per blast rules.
Models in my unit can see your company command, so the wounding pool is fully used. The devistator marine in the top story is coordinating the shots to his squadmates below.

Example 2
Company command 2.0 is afraid of getting PC'd to death. They get out the back of the chimmera, using it to block line of sight to the base level of the ruins where the cannons are dug in.
The Company command unloads a hail of plasma fire from the 4 plasmaguns and kill off the marines on the upper floors (as the lower floor models cannot be seen, and cannot be allocated to).
Chimmera dumps in it's 6 shots for good measure.
Marines return firing, with a plasma cannon shot scattering out of sight and onto the company command. With no devistator being able to draw line of sight, the wound pool is dumped.

Tactically, being large and spread out gives you a better kill box.
But, being large and spread out lets opponents snipe off portions of your unit with line of sight blocking tactics.

What you are not taking into account is that the shot missed its intended target and hit something else. It can.cause wounds because the huge ball of burning plasma went over the Chimera and landed behind it in the middle of the Company Command. You don't have to be able to see something to be able to kill it by accident with a scattering explosion. What would be the point of being able to hit and wound a unit outside of LOS if you then can't allocate wounds to the part you can't see? If you have to have LOS to allocate a wound how do you wound a unit ignoring LOS like the rules say you can do?