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Ok, page 58, GK codex :

Psyocculum :" The bearer of a psyocculum (and his unit) count as being Ballistic Skill 10 if shooting at a psyker, or a unit containing one or more"
SET VALUE= BS 10

Overwatch= Snap shot BCB (Big Coloured Book) says : Page 13, "if a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots"
SET VALUE= BS1

Page 2, Multiple Modifiers :

"..... and finally apply any set values"

Necrons' FAQ: page 4 "... if the models is effected by another set value modifier , roll off which is applied first ...."


So my understanding is ,if I my squad with psyocculum makes overwatch vs unit containing at lease one psyker I need to roll of to see which set value is applied as a firs... so possibly I could do overwatch at BS10.

What is your opinion?

Your models are BS 10, but they count as BS 1 for the purpose of resolving those shots. BS 1 (just like using a Signum).

Happyjew wrote:Your models are BS 10, but they count as BS 1 for the purpose of resolving those shots. BS 1 (just like using a Signum).

Quotes from BCB to cover your statement, please.

Do a search for Signums and Snap Shots, it is pretty well covered there. Also Marker Lights and Snap Shots.

I think this is a stretch. Just my opnion though.
By this logic anyone who had any change to BS could possiblly snapfire more accuratly than intended. The only example that I can think of off hand is Torian Telion from Codex :SM page 88,
his Voice of Experience rule allows him to forgo a shooting attack so that a member of his squad can fire at BS of 6.

I can see the common sense of using the higher BS in both examples.. in yours for the psyker targeting "magic" and for Sgt Telion's battlefield experience, However as in both cases snap shots are supposed to represent being caught flat footed and in a hurried rushed state I would think the BS 1 would win out.

Over all though I am not sure, very good question and I would like to hear others take on it.

is about SET values

Snap Fire says, set value 1 for BS
Psycculum says, set value 10 for BS

The necrons' FAQ tales you what to do when you have 2 set values, roll off .

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/460939.page

Deals with the exact same topic. Okay not the exact same, but a similar one.

Happyjew wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/460939.page

Deals with the exact same topic. Okay not the exact same, but a similar one.

Thanks, but no conclusions can be taken from there as nothing has been clarified in that topic.

RAW , 2 set values, roll off which one takes precedence.

Please Quote page to knock this down. thanks

There have been numerous threads on this with Snap Shots counting as BS1 not being a direct replacement of BS, no one is willing to give up their position yet.

god.ra wrote:

Happyjew wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/460939.page

Deals with the exact same topic. Okay not the exact same, but a similar one.

Thanks, but no conclusions can be taken from there as nothing has been clarified in that topic.

RAW , 2 set values, roll off which one takes precedence.

Please Quote page to knock this down. thanks

Under the rules for Snap Shot "Forced to make a Snap Shot rather than shoot normally"

Normally, you are firing at BS 10 at a unit with a psyker. Overwatch specifically says "unlike a normal" in bolded, specific reference to shots fired on Overwatch. You are firing abnormal shots. Therefore, your BS10/Signum/Whatever does not apply and you Snap Shot because you are forced to make it at BS 1.

You want to fire at BS 10 on overwatch? Take Divination and hope to roll a 1 and get Foreboding which specifically overrides Overwatch in regards to Ballistic Skill.

Otherwise, you are BS 1.

This does not fall under the Signum v. Snapshot discussion.

This is a situation where both rules use the Count-as clause with Setting the Value.

The Signum Sets the models BS at 5. Snap shots then set the shots at BS1.

Psyocculums do the same "Shots at" the psyker "Count as" BS10.

As you have an actual rules clash, there are 2 Options:

1) Roll off since you have a Count as for both of the situations you are currently in(Snap shots and Shooting at a unit containing a Psyker).

2) Page 7 that Shizzle! There is very much a conflict between a rule in the rulebook(Snap Shot = BS1), and a Rule in the codex(Unit containing a Psyocculum shooting at a unit containing a Psyker). Page 7 says Codex rule auto-wins




Well, I guess there is only Option 2.

You are "count As" BS10 while Snap-shoting against unit containing Psykers.

How many codexes are you trying to use for the Grey Knights? Necron and Space Marines rules have nothing to do with GKs.

Yes, they have BS 10 until they snap shoot.

Kommissar Kel wrote:This does not fall under the Signum v. Snapshot discussion.

This is a situation where both rules use the Count-as clause with Setting the Value.

The Signum Sets the models BS at 5. Snap shots then set the shots at BS1.

Psyocculums do the same "Shots at" the psyker "Count as" BS10.

As you have an actual rules clash, there are 2 Options:

1) Roll off since you have a Count as for both of the situations you are currently in(Snap shots and Shooting at a unit containing a Psyker).

2) Page 7 that Shizzle! There is very much a conflict between a rule in the rulebook(Snap Shot = BS1), and a Rule in the codex(Unit containing a Psyocculum shooting at a unit containing a Psyker). Page 7 says Codex rule auto-wins




Well, I guess there is only Option 2.

You are "count As" BS10 while Snap-shoting against unit containing Psykers.

Actually no, if both rules say counts as the active player decides the order the effects apply. Meaning the guy charging you first applys your BS10 rule, then applys the snap shot rules taking the counts as back to a 1.

Hmmm, I would say the Psyocculum wins this time.

Both apply a Set Value at the same time and there is a rule conflict. I say the codex wins on this one.


Just don't charge a Psykers unit at someone with a Psyocculum.

tgf wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:This does not fall under the Signum v. Snapshot discussion.

This is a situation where both rules use the Count-as clause with Setting the Value.

The Signum Sets the models BS at 5. Snap shots then set the shots at BS1.

Psyocculums do the same "Shots at" the psyker "Count as" BS10.

As you have an actual rules clash, there are 2 Options:

1) Roll off since you have a Count as for both of the situations you are currently in(Snap shots and Shooting at a unit containing a Psyker).

2) Page 7 that Shizzle! There is very much a conflict between a rule in the rulebook(Snap Shot = BS1), and a Rule in the codex(Unit containing a Psyocculum shooting at a unit containing a Psyker). Page 7 says Codex rule auto-wins




Well, I guess there is only Option 2.

You are "count As" BS10 while Snap-shoting against unit containing Psykers.

Actually no, if both rules say counts as the active player decides the order the effects apply. Meaning the guy charging you first applys your BS10 rule, then applys the snap shot rules taking the counts as back to a 1.

Correct active player decides which order to apply in. Can't remember the page off hand. Active player is the one charging and would apply bs10 then bs1 causing you to be bs1.

No, this isn't a case of 2 actions happening simultaniously. Its a case of 2 conflicting rules, in which case the Codex wins.

Page 7 The last paragraph of Basic Vs Advanced.



Also, using the necron roll off to provide grounds for a point for another armies codex are incorrect. If your errata covers a similar issue, it would be covered in your errata. The only reason that the necrons whip coils have this errata is because Basic Vs Advanced doesnt cover this as any instance with whip coils will be a codex vs codex issue. This is why the whip coils were provided this errata.

Grey Templar wrote:No, this isn't a case of 2 actions happening simultaniously. Its a case of 2 conflicting rules, in which case the Codex wins.

I've looked up the rules now.

Grey Knight Codex wrote:
The bearer of a psyocculum (and his unit) count as being Ballistic Skill 1 0 if shooting at a psyker, or a unit containing one or more psykers.

Rule Book wrote:
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

Rule Book wrote:
An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on. Unlike a normal shooting attack, Overwatch cannot cause Morale checks or Pinning tests. Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots (see page 13 for more on Snap Shots). Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch.

Rule Book wrote:On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.'Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence.

Now looking through all of the evidence given we can see that:

An overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack
A normal shooting attack can use the psyocculum
Overwatch fire as snap shots
Snap shots fire at BS1
A psyocculum gives models BS10 when shooting at psykers
Codex overrides Rulebook
Therefore against Psykers psyocculum allows BS10 for overwatch against charging psykers

The only way this is not possible is if you cannot use the psyocculum with snap shots which I currently cannot find rules prohibiting.

Looks like it's time to induct some of these as allies.

Meh, GKs don't have any Battle brothers so you can't attach the Inquisitor to anyone but a GK unit. Still, not bad if you put him in a big unit of GKs(maybe with psybolts and a couple psycannons)

Except you are not firing normally, thereby making it Snap Fire.

djdarknoise wrote:Except you are not firing normally, thereby making it Snap Fire.

2 questions.

1) whom are you addressing?
2) what would that matter(the not firing Normally)?

djdarknoise wrote:Except you are not firing normally, thereby making it Snap Fire.

No, Snap Firing is resolved exactly like normal shooting. Except it puts a set value modifier on your BS, the same thing the Psyocculum does.

djdarknoise wrote:Except you are not firing normally, thereby making it Snap Fire.

So you snap fire which is resolved as normal except blasts cannot be fired. Guess that doesn't apply to storm bolters that fire as normal.

Doesn't specific override general in this case?

Shooting at a psyker -> BS 10
Shooting at a psyker as snap shots -> BS1 overrides BS10 ("then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots"

The reason the Psycocclum doesn't work is that it effects the model (unit counts as BS10). This is still in effect, but Snap Shots effects the shots themselves (for the purposes of these shots).

This provides a timing sequence, as when you select a target with a psyker you become BS10, and then when you go to resolve the shooting you drop down to BS1.

Of course, you could disagree, because its just my reading of it.

Kiredor wrote:The reason the Psycocclum doesn't work is that it effects the model (unit counts as BS10). This is still in effect, but Snap Shots effects the shots themselves (for the purposes of these shots).

This provides a timing sequence, as when you select a target with a psyker you become BS10, and then when you go to resolve the shooting you drop down to BS1.

Of course, you could disagree, because its just my reading of it.

I'm disagreeing because that's something you've made up yourself to try and quantify it. THat's not something you will find in the BRB.

I do however feel the RAI would be BS1 in this case. (However, I feel that the RAW falls more towards the BS10 direction)

Since both use the word 'counts.' This is a dice off! Seems pretty straight forawrd to me.

I point again to the last paragraph of page 7.

Pg 7 Basic Versus Advanced; Last paragraph wrote:On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence.

Codex rules will always trump BRB -unless errata in that armies codex specify you to do something else-.