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So, at first, I didn't think that guard stormies really changed all that much over 6th ed, but clues have been popping up to prove me wrong. As such, I'm still trying to sift out what 6th ed really did to stormies, as I want to field them in my infantry lists in 6th.

So far, they appear to have gained no real cons from the switch, but several pros.

- the deepstrike mishap table isn't as dangerous as it once was.

- rapid fire means you can shoot further on the move. This doesn't mean a lot to deepstrikers, but to foot stormies...

- you can now throw a frag or krak grenade (real useful with deepstriking).

- they are unaffected by the worsening of cover, at least as far as incoming fire from small arms are concerned (especially pertinent against enemy overwatch).

- wound wrapping rewrite means that flamers are actually an option now.

- wound wrapping in conjunction with deepstriking makes them "snipers" now.

- the sergeant now gains the occasional precise shot and precise strike.

- the sarge can take two plasma pistols and use them both.

- they now have overwatch. Say hello to Ap3 overwatch...

- they kill vehicles more easily in close combat (which matters for deepstrikers).

At least, this is all the pros I can think of. In any case, it looks like they got a whole lot of tiny buffs, but what does it actually mean? Certainly, if all you want to do is to take suicide stormies and throw a pair of special weapons at something, you can still do that, and rejoice that new vehicle glancing rules and safer deepstrike allow you to do this job slightly better than before, but for the same price. But what about the rest?

Does it make sense to take 10x stormtrooper squads now? Back in 5th ed, cover was so easy to get, that even deepstriking often didn't break up cover saves. Without majority cover, and with the addiiton of focus fire, those hellguns suddenly actually seem rather useful now. This is especially important with overwatch and the new "sniping" abilities out of deepstrike. Furthermore, in not getting any less durable, they got relatively slightly more durable than regular guardsmen. Perhaps they have some ability to be a linebacker squad, or actually make it on their own?

Does it make sense to take foot stormies now? Yes, deepstrike is awesome, but could there now be a case for deploying them regularly? That rapid fire got a nice little bump at far ranges, which makes it vaguely possible now. Furthermore, overwatch makes them something that can actually do mean things to certain units, and their traditional advantage of carapace armor means they can actually stick it out a bit if they want. Said carapace also makes it less likely that the sergeant will get picked out by sniper or barrage fire, which means that it might actually be worth taking a power weapon, especially if he's leading a 10x strong squad. Furthermore, stormies can still take orders. BiD on a stormie squad with 2x plasma and 2x plasma pistols (not to mention hellguns) would make a brutal counterfire unit against anything that got terribly close.

Perhaps now there's a use for them like Saxon Housecarls - an elite unit that protects the HQ.

Does it make sense to take flamers with stormies now? As mentioned, we're done with old wound wrapping, and we've got new, better wound wrapping. That and flamers are rather neat in overwatch now. They still gain the advantages of "sniping" out of deepstrike, while being better at their primary role (especially if you bring 10 of them), that of killing infantry.

I'm imagining a unit that costs 185 points and is 10x stormies with 2x flamers and a power axe. If they are able to get somewhere zesty with their pinpoint deepstrike, I can imagine getting some 6 hits on a squad per flamer. Against a GEq squad, the combined flamer and hellgun fire would kill 13, and against MEq, it would kill 4 or 6. Then, in return, they'd be able to withstand shooting decently with their carapace armor, and if they got charged the next turn, their opponent would be subject to Ap3 overwatch along with the flamer overwatch and then be up against dudes in carapace armor with a proper power weapon. Stormies may not be good in close combat, but they would be against a severely weakened unit.

Otherwise, I'm imagining the same thing, except costing more but with plasma hanging out near an officer. Basically, due to their still relative fragility and expense would be spending most of their time in deep hiding (perhaps in a fortress, perhaps going to ground a lot), and being used as a defensive fire unit like vets, except more expensive, but better (sans chimera and extra special weapon, but with gear to help them survive better and have more versatility.

But perhaps this is a madness borne from the mind of someone who has wanted to field 10x stormie squads, but never had the reasonable excuse to. In any case, it feels like they got so many neat tiny buffs, that I'd really like to think that they can now expand out of their narrow box of 5x deepstrikers delivering a pair of plasma or meltaguns at something.

All i can say is try it and see

I've never understood why people don't think stormies are worth it, sure they are a bit pricey, but i've always found that they make up for the cost.

Usually I run them as a 10 man squad kitted up with plasma guns, has worked fine for me.

They now hold a position of deep striking terminator slayer extroadinaires. They are good at thier job and I believe that 6th ed just made them better at it.

Housecarls Housecarls Housecarls Housecarls

do it do it do it

I think holding them in reserve with piping hot plasma is an excellent idea. Piping hot firepower to take down elite units, either in their line or shoring up yours. Sounds good.
Also- Don't stormtroopers have pistol+swords? Makes that overwatch with or without flamers that bit better. Or am i think of CCS/PCS redshirts?

I sympathise with wanting to run them in groups of 10. I love the idea of an elite shooting foot unit. However, even with the "benefits" you've listed, there's one crucial difference - foot vets do the exact same, for 6 points less per model, and can take 3 special weapons.

If you outift vets with carapace armour, they come to 10 points a model, for the exact same statline as stormtroopers, and they can take 3 special weapons. I know everyone gets their knickers in a twist over the flamer rules, but honestly it still doesn't make them nearly as viable as the alternatives. Death company aren't going to give a gak about those flamers when they charge them, overwatch in general should be ignored by most players unless you have burna boys, flamers of tzeentch etc. People are over-reacting to the new rules sets with cries of "YOU'RE IN FIFTH NOW BOYO". Vehicles are still dominant, non-deepstriking stormies still suck.

Stormies are still only useful for deep-strking next to enemy armour and blowing it up with melta guns. Everyone gets excited about them "character sniping" but honestly you shouldn't be using a 105 point unit to try to kill a 15 point power fist.

Hot-Shot Lasguns still suck at killing Marines though. I love Kasrkins and i would love to fill my Elites slots with full squads but they suck hard at their primary job.It's too rare to catch Marinies in the open to justify spending Marine points on a unit that won't do enough damage to make a difference let alone earn their points back.

They are still only good for deepstriking Melta imo. 105pts to take out a 250pt Land Raider and expose its contents to the rest of your army is always going to be the best Storm Troopers can do with the current codex.

Peace Out!
Jonny!

The one major nerf they took was that their hot shot lasguns now rapid fire at 9" (half of their 18" range). This makes them slightly less good in their deep striking role, and substantially less good in their "elite shooter" role.

That being said, I still want to deep strike 10 of them. I think between their good close range shooting and minor assault ability (3 attacks on the charge, woo!), they can work to go after rear area firepower units. They have a lot of little abilities (both long guns and pistol/ccw, frag & krak grenades, carapace armor, 2 special weapons) that add up to give them a lot of good targets. Since American Football analogies seem to keep popping up in Guard threads recently, they're like a Safety. Not big and strong enough to take on anybody, but reasonably powerful, and quick enough (via deepstrike) to be where you need them to be.

Deep striking hot shots is good. A standard hot shot has a 2/9 chance of killing a MEQ, so you can expect a squad of 10 troopers to kill ~4.44 MEQ.

Getting a 4+ save means that HBs or ACs will need to be used to kill them. If you deep strike into ruins you can even be resilient to that.
Edit : Does deep stirking into difficult cover cause dangerous terrain test? If so, only 1/12 of them will die.

Oddly enough, when mathammering it out, I don't think PGs are worth it. They cost to much for the extra killyness that the hot-shots provide.

I'd actually considered dropping plasma from a 10 man unit because of the cost, but it's adds both range, TEQ killing, and anti-tank. It does seem like a bit of a shame to pay for the hotshot in the base cost, and then pay for the plasma on top of it, though.

I think flamers would be worth it. Their low in cost, and you still get your hot shot laspistol -- so if the enemy is more than 8" away you can still get a few shots.

Hot shot laspistol is 6" range.

You guys are pissing points away.
10 stormtroopers, assuming 5 get to double tap and 4 do not, plus the pistol, gives 15 shots. 10 of these hit, 3.3 wound, 2.2 dead MEQ. That's in pretty much the best scenario. You just killed 32 points worth of models with a 160 point unit, and they're almost definitely going to be dead the next turn.

Lucien-Alexis wrote:I've never understood why people don't think stormies are worth it, sure they are a bit pricey, but i've always found that they make up for the cost.

Usually I run them as a 10 man squad kitted up with plasma guns, has worked fine for me.

I'm with you. I never played a game in 5th WITHOUT at least a 5-man squad of stormtroopers and they've never let me down. I don't understand the hate.

Haven't played 6th, but I think Ailaros is right and they got slightly better.

Biophysical wrote:Hot shot laspistol is 6" range.

Heh, your right. My mistake.

I'm finding them more effective than in 5th. My tactics with them haven't changed at all.
One or two squads of five, with either a couple of plasma or a couple of melta, then deep strike them with Airbourn Assault. Makes for some very accurate drops.
Veterans are good, but can't deep strike.
StormTroopers can cause some chaos, do some damage and then your opponent has to deal with them. They rarely survive long, so I don't go into squads larger than five.

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:They now hold a position of deep striking terminator slayer extroadinaires. They are good at thier job and I believe that 6th ed just made them better at it.

How did they get better at anti-terminator?

Jihallah wrote:Don't stormtroopers have pistol+swords? Makes that overwatch with or without flamers that bit better. Or am i think of CCS/PCS redshirts?

So, stormies are properly armed. They get Ap3 lasguns AND Ap3 laspistols AND close combat weapons.

Testify wrote:If you outift vets with carapace armour, they come to 10 points a model, for the exact same statline as stormtroopers, and they can take 3 special weapons.

But we're talking about stormtroopers, not veterans. Veterans are cheaper, have more special weapons firepower and they score. Stormies have Ap3 weapons, are better in close combat, and can pinpoint deepstrike.

I guess if you're making the point that vets will protect a backfield HQ unit better then I suppose that would be true, as the scoring part would be more useful.

RubberJonny wrote:Hot-Shot Lasguns still suck at killing Marines though.

Testify wrote:10 stormtroopers, assuming 5 get to double tap and 4 do not, plus the pistol, gives 15 shots. 10 of these hit, 3.3 wound, 2.2 dead MEQ. That's in pretty much the best scenario. You just killed 32 points worth of models with a 160 point unit, and they're almost definitely going to be dead the next turn.

As mentioned, when you deepstrike right next to them, the hellguns are capable of nearly wiping out a 5-man combat squad on their own.

The important thing with hellguns, though, is that they're attached to stormies, not regular guardsmen. If you show up and beat up a 10x tac squad down to 5 dudes, in return, those 5 dudes are going to shoot back and only kill 2 in return. The stormies then butcher them on the next turn. With lots of guard units you have to think only about that one chance they're going to get to kill stuff, but that's not quite the case with stormies, as they have a killing power combined with durability that most guard units don't have access to.

I mean, just look at how they handle termies. Let's even assume the less-optimal 2x flamers and power axe against a group of 5 termies with an assault cannon. The stormies show up and kill 2 with shooting (positioning things in such a way where you nail the assault cannon dude first). The remaining 3 termies shoot at your stormies killing 1. Then they charge in, allowing you to kill another 1 with overwatch. Then, after the sergeant kills the stormie sergeant in the challenge, the 8 other stormies bust out their knives and perhaps kill another termie, before he has a chance to swing his power fist.

This scenario had odds rounded in the guard player's favor, but it goes to show that even a non-optimized anti-termie squad still has the ability to beat up terminators through a combination of shooting and close combat. Stormies really aren't just regular guardsmen. That makes their small arms more useful.

Biophysical wrote:The one major nerf they took was that their hot shot lasguns now rapid fire at 9" (half of their 18" range). This makes them slightly less good in their deep striking role, and substantially less good in their "elite shooter" role.

Ah, thanks for the heads up.

labmouse42 wrote:Oddly enough, when mathammering it out, I don't think PGs are worth it. They cost to much for the extra killyness that the hot-shots provide.

That's an interesting way of looking at it.

2 hellguns kills 8/9 MEQs.
1 plasma gun kills 10/9 MEQs.

They're almost the exact same price. Plasma gives you better range, anti-teq, and anti-tank. Hellguns give you another wound and more cc attacks.

I feel DSing them kinda of makes the range issue between Melta/plasma moot.

Biophysical wrote:2 hellguns kills 8/9 MEQs.
1 plasma gun kills 10/9 MEQs.

They're almost the exact same price. Plasma gives you better range, anti-teq, and anti-tank. Hellguns give you another wound and more cc attacks.

What? A pair of stormies costs a little over twice as much as a single plasma gun upgrade.

I wonder if perhaps what's getting confusing in here is that the role of 10 stormies is just going to be different than the role of 5. 5 aren't very durable, and don't come with many small arms, so it would make sense to use them as a disposable source of plasma or melta. With 10, though, your primary role switches to packing in hellgun wounds, and surviving long enough to do them again. In this case, it might not make as much sense to pack in melta, as you'd be literally wasting hellguns (that you had to spend a lot to bring), and I suppose plasma makes more sense, but is still not perfect.

I guess in the case of plasma it would be one of giving them more marine-like versatility, rather than having them put into a single role. I suppose, though, that plasma would still keep them in their infantry role, as a single plasma fusilade isn't that likely to kill a vehicle the turn that they land, S7 weapons now being good for turn-over turn firepower. In the case of stormies, though, it would make sense to just charge in with krak grenades if you wanted to glance vehicles to death.

I want to like Stormies. They can be pretty resilient. My main beef is that they are not stubborn, which I can't fathom as they are the "elite of the elite" so to speak. Without the Sgt they are only Ld7, which once again baffles me. They can however, truly ruin a MEQ squad's day if they are caught in the open. Plus the look on the opponents face when their powerarmour clad warriors go down to a round of guardsmen shooting is priceless. Now charging a squad with overwatch AP3 is something to be reckoned with even at BS1. they are still overpriced IMO.

I liked to run stormtroopers in 5th as outflanking mechanized plasma teams. They excelled at back field killing, had some survivability, were a good surgical element, and we're cost efficient to the alternative.

5 stormtroopers 85pts,
2 plasmagun 30pts
1 plasmapistol 10pts
Chimera 55pts
Give them the 'behind enemy lines' mission for infiltrate (outflank) and pinning.

180 points for a hard hitting outflanker that takes some concentration to get rid of (more than just deepstriking and suiciding)

The comparative unit being mechanized plasmavets
Vets 70pts
3 plasmaguns 45pts
Grenadiers 30pts
Chimera 55pts
200pts

The vets get 5 more guys, but they can't shoot out the top anyways, and as soon as thier ride is gone, they're pretty much a lost cause anyways. Stormies get 1 less plasmashot, but they can outflank for prime targets, and get pinning on their first shot to boot.

But yeah, any way you look at them, theyre overcosted and mostly redundant to other options in the codex. 16 points a model, are you kidding me? Maybe if they had bs5 or something.

The plasma gun us 15 points, but the Stormtrooper firing it is 16. So you get 2 Storms with hellguns, or 1 with plasma.

Biophysical wrote:The plasma gun us 15 points, but the Stormtrooper firing it is 16. So you get 2 Storms with hellguns, or 1 with plasma.

For me anyway it's a no brainer. Take the plasma.
Why in the hell else would you be wasting time/points on them?
If they aren't taking melta/plasma, why are they even a consideration?
AP3 hellguns? No, not a valid reason. There's WAY too many better things to
get with points.

Ah, okay. It's still an unfair comparison, though, as you get two special weapons slots for free (don't have to first buy another stormie to field them).

The outflanking plasma squad actually seems more interesting now, especially with better rapid fire. Hmm...

... still think I'd rather deepstrike, though. Of course, for 250 points, you could roll 10 on which would be rather a pain in the butt to handle. Harassing units don't matter if they're not a credible threat. 10 stormies outflanking in a chimera would likely be just that.

Aren't hellguns S3?

If so, you're paying a lot for T3/S3/4+/AP3 to kill T4/S4/AP5.

It's not about the AP here; forcing wounds is better than ignoring armor. PG is good against TEQ because it wounds on a 2+ and ignores the 2+ save. You're wounding on a 5+ buddy. Bolters will cause more ST deaths than HSt guns do to MEQ.

Take vets, 2x fire with BID, murder MEQ and TEQ. My MEQ (specifically berzerkers) simply make a mockery of stormtroopers.

10 deepstriking stormtroops will just get assaulted by whatever's nearby. Even with pistols and knives, theyre still just guardsmen. Never rely on overwatch for anything unless you have 3 or 4 flamers in it. They will fail to kill more than they get killed. They will then fail their moral check with -modifiers. They will then get swept.

Unless youre striking against like... tau or another guard player.

I'd never put 10 stormtroopers in a chimera because 5 of them are just sitting on thier thumbs all day. Thats almost 100 points doing nothing.

also, why do you guys keep referring to BiD on meq. That only work on vehicles or MCs.

Ailaros wrote:

Biophysical wrote:2 hellguns kills 8/9 MEQs.
1 plasma gun kills 10/9 MEQs.

They're almost the exact same price. Plasma gives you better range, anti-teq, and anti-tank. Hellguns give you another wound and more cc attacks.

What? A pair of stormies costs a little over twice as much as a single plasma gun upgrade.

He is including the base cost of the original storm trooper
So cost wise it is
Storm Trooper+Storm Trooper
vs.
Storm Trooper+Plasma Gun

which is only a one point difference.

Twiqbal wrote:Aren't hellguns S3?

If so, you're paying a lot for T3/S3/4+/AP3 to kill T4/S4/AP5.

It's not about the AP here; forcing wounds is better than ignoring armor.

Not necessarily. A stormie kills over 3x as many marines per shot as a regular guardsman for roughly 3x the price, but then comes with a bunch of other goodies.

Really, it's all those goodies that make a stormtrooper a stormtrooper. If you can't get the full use out of all of the many obligatory upgrades you have to pay for, then sure, stormies wouldn't make sense to take. If you can, though, they are.

They actually rather remind me of 1ksons in this regard.

Twiqbal wrote:Take vets, 2x fire with BID, murder MEQ and TEQ. My MEQ (specifically berzerkers) simply make a mockery of stormtroopers.

Not against units in the backfield. Vets are a defensive weapon that are too fragile to just run around charging at stuff. Stormies are an offensive weapon that get to show up anywhere and maul something before they get shot back at. Anywhere on the board, and with more survivability.

And with more goodies.

McGibs wrote:10 deepstriking stormtroops will just get assaulted by whatever's nearby. Even with pistols and knives, theyre still just guardsmen.

... but they're not.

Stormies get to shoot at whatever they're attacking in very favorable conditions, and will only get assaulted by the survivors, against which they have carapace armor (which means they can actually withstand bolter fire before, and chainsword damage better during an assault). Meanwhile, guardsmen's mobility is greatly reduced (what with not deepstriking or outflanking), and they are beholden to stay in cover against basically everything in order to get a save of any sort, and have to react to what your opponent is doing much more (due to less mobility).

The two really do have different uses.

McGibs wrote:I'd never put 10 stormtroopers in a chimera because 5 of them are just sitting on thier thumbs all day. Thats almost 100 points doing nothing.

In this case, I'd assume that they'd make their plasma splash in the chimera, and then fight most of the rest of the game on foot (probably because their transport would be destroyed). In any case, it gives you options.

, and will only get assaulted by the survivors,

In a total vacuum maybe. What about any other nearby units?

When a unit deepstrikes into the backfield, ALL the enemy units that are in the backfield will usually try to react to it, until it's dead. That devestator squad, that riflemen dread, that leman russ, that predator, those tac squads holding objectives. Assault termies with 2+3++ can survive that. t3 4+ cannot.

If you deepstrike stormtroopers. They will, 95% of the time, be killed or routed in the enemy's turn. That's just how they roll.

Rather than take 10 stormies in a chimera, take two 5 man squads in chimeras.