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Heck, they can legally take anything out of the C:SM codex.

Now, before the rage begins about how I am "wrong" hear me out on how you do it.

We will just stick with the Stormtalon example. First, you take your talon and you paint it into BA colors, just like the rest of your army. Then you make a nice HQ unit and other requirements that are also painted just like the rest of your army. Then, using the Allies rule, you add the Stormtalon into your list as an "ally" despite the fact that visually, you are just fielding one chapter. Fluff wise, you can be fielding one chapter as well. Rules wise though, you are fielding a BA army that is allied with a C:SM army.

Hate to burst your bubble, but you're a long way from being the first to suggest that.


I would point out though that paiting your allies in the same colour scheme as your main detachment is going to ruffle feathers, because it's going to make it hard for your opponent to keep track of who is who.

jadebullet wrote:Heck, they can legally take anything out of the C:SM codex.

Now, before the rage begins about how I am "wrong" hear me out on how you do it.

We will just stick with the Stormtalon example. First, you take your talon and you paint it into BA colors, just like the rest of your army. Then you make a nice HQ unit and other requirements that are also painted just like the rest of your army. Then, using the Allies rule, you add the Stormtalon into your list as an "ally" despite the fact that visually, you are just fielding one chapter. Fluff wise, you can be fielding one chapter as well. Rules wise though, you are fielding a BA army that is allied with a C:SM army.

Obviously.

insaniak wrote:Hate to burst your bubble, but you're a long way from being the first to suggest that.


I would point out though that paiting your allies in the same colour scheme as your main detachment is going to ruffle feathers, because it's going to make it hard for your opponent to keep track of who is who.

That, to be quite honest, is their problem. And what does it matter. Blood Angels and Space Marines are battle brothers.

Even Battle Brothers have some limits on cross-codex application of special abilities.

It is important that your opponent always be clear which units are from which codex.

Purifier wrote:That, to be quite honest, is their problem.

Indeed having their cranium stuck up their rectum, is their problem.

How dare they expect me to make clear to them which unit is which? What jerks!

Mannahnin wrote:How dare they expect me to make clear to them which unit is which? What jerks!

Hey, you tell them, and if they can't be bothered remembering then you can tell them again when they ask.

If they demand you paint your army as they want, then yes. How dare they.

Mannahnin wrote:How dare they expect me to make clear to them which unit is which? What jerks!

Ok then, i'll just take BA and their allied blood ravens and never explain anything, after all all the models will be WYSIWYG.

No one's demanding anything. Insaniak pointed out that people may complain if they can't tell which units are the Allies, which might be an issue if you paint them "just like the rest of your army", as the OP suggested.

The smart and socially-adeptive choice is to make them somehow easy to visually distinguish. Whether you do that by painting them in a completely different color scheme, or by using the same basic scheme but with some distinction (like a different colored shoulder pad, or company marking), or whatever.

There's plenty of room to exercise your creative control over your own army while still doing your opponents the courtesy of making the allies and the main army easy to distinguish.

My method of doing this would be to paint the Allies units as a BA successor chapter, that way they are easily noticed but fit in. There is nothing saying you can't just paint them all the same like that, but for the sake of sportsmanship this is one of those things that just because you can do it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Units bought from the BA book don't have chapter tactics and have to roll for black rage.

So even though both are marines, you'll need to be able to identify which come from which book.
Also, some of the gear only affects blood angels (see sang priest in FAQ), so on the table both you and your opponent would have to be able to tell them apart.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:Units bought from the BA book don't have chapter tactics and have to roll for black rage.

So even though both are marines, you'll need to be able to identify which come from which book.
Also, some of the gear only affects blood angels (see sang priest in FAQ), so on the table both you and your opponent would have to be able to tell them apart.

-Matt

It's not like a game of "find the ball under the right cup" every round. Even in friendly games where I have had 2 or even 3 units of bases representing different units, I have known what each unit was throughout the game, and usually my opponent has too.

I feel like the reasoning is that your opponent is suffering from short term memory loss.

That said, I agree that giving some small signifier (like the shoulder pads mentioned above) is a perfect way of showing it, but if someone feels differently and thinks all his units need to have the exact same storm trooper look, I'd be shocked if his opponent had issues with that.

We have a little rule at our club "Don't make your opponent have to find some way to keep your units straight".

I encourage different color bases, helmets, a pink die that follows the unit around, something to keep those look-alike allies in line.

Purifier wrote:I feel like the reasoning is that your opponent is suffering from short term memory loss.

Don't make fun of ADD people, they might remember it.

If you want red allies paint them up as Blood Ravens- at least then you will have a uniform red but the allies will have a plash of lighter colour to make them stand out.

I second the blood ravens idea.. Still makes it look like a coherent force!

If I use allied SM I'll probably go Flesh Tearers; I painted up some of them for Adepticon anyway.

Purifier wrote:I feel like the reasoning is that your opponent is suffering from short term memory loss.

You clearly have not met me. I've always had problems with my short term memory, so something like this might be a problem for me. Seriously, I have to ask people that I meet not to get offended when (not if) I forget their name.

All I would ask as an opponent is that you make it clear which units are from each detachment. Any kind of visual marker would do: a particular emblem on a kneepad, a different coloured bolter, or a piece of paper next to the unit; anything that I can see from across the table. I ask this because over the course of a 2-3 hour battle, I will forget otherwise, if everything in your army looks the same.

Think of it like this: you have several Sergeants armed with identical-looking swords. You've decided to treat most of them as regular close combat weapons, but you've purchased one of them as a power sword. This does not break WYSIWYG, as a sword could feasibly represent either a CCW or power weapon. But if there is no visual marker to identify them, how could you possibly expect an opponent, whom you may never have met before, to be able to remember which is which? You might explain it before the game ("It's the one standing on a rock, yelling over his left shoulder. Not to be confused with the one looking upwards, laughing at your poor cognitive abilities."), but with all the events in the game unfolding and all the rules that need to be recalled, it wouldn't be unusual for a detail like this to be forgotten in the heat of the moment.

It might be easy for you, as the owner, to recognise which units are which (hell, I recently left a random model at home, and when I went to play my game I was able to describe exactly what the model looked like, down to the smallest conversion parts), but it might be a bit much for your opponent to do the same.

Personally, I'd just do it by saying that the allies are the returned members of a recent crusade. Having fought in a mixed formation with other Space Marines for a number of years, they have developed a preference for more Codex-adherent tactics, and so fight in a similar way to other Space Marine chapters (thus representing Combat Tactics). They all share a simple pattern on their left kneepad to mark their participation in the crusade (thus providing this visual marker), and in recognition for their services the Blood Angels were gifted with a new Storm Talon flyer from one of the other participant chapters (thus explaining its presence). Done.

I thought it was only Armies from codex:space marines that could take them? If not, can my wolves take them?

Ruarinator2 wrote:I thought it was only Armies from codex:space marines that could take them? If not, can my wolves take them?

The OP is suggesting that any chapter can take a Codex: Space Marine allied detachment and include a ST in that, and simply paint the allies to match the primary detachment. I don't feel comfortable with that as it is, since it could cause confusion, but if you have some way of differentiating between the allied and primary detachments, then I'd have no problem.

It's not a problem of being overpowered (you are, after all, forced to take an HQ and Troops before you can take the allied Talon), it's more just an issue of remembering which of your squads has Combat Tactics...

That is what they are trying to cheeseball, as StormTalons are indeed C:SM Flyers

Dammit, Ninja'd

Ruarinator2 wrote:I thought it was only Armies from codex:space marines that could take them? If not, can my wolves take them?

What the OP is doing is playing with semantics and trying to be clever. The fact remains that a BA force cannot take a stormtallon. An allied C:SM force can, and you can call them Blood Angels, and paint them red, but they are still a C:SM force. People are mixing fluff with crunch to try and be clever and it is just a little silly. I can paint a Dredknight red and take some GK allies, but that dose not make it a BA Dredknight.

On the color front personally I think it is rude no expect your opponent to remember what is from which codex, and I can see it not being long before tournaments start to implement something. How many cheaters will start turning up with mixed SM forces with similar troops with different rules but the same minis and swapping which is which as they go will it take? All it takes is different shoulder-pads or different company markings.

Steve steveson wrote:What the OP is doing is playing with semantics and trying to be clever. The fact remains that a BA force cannot take a stormtallon. An allied C:SM force can, and you can call them Blood Angels, and paint them red, but they are still a C:SM force. People are mixing fluff with crunch to try and be clever and it is just a little silly. I can paint a Dredknight red and take some GK allies, but that dose not make it a BA Dredknight.

That's a bit harsh; I think it's actually a pretty cool idea, personally. In fact, I'd be totally fine with your "BA Dreadknight" if you came up with some cool fluff for it (and, like the Talon, you had some method of differentiating your primary detachment from your allied detachment). That's the kind of creativity that really sets this game apart from others, IMHO.

As long as there's a clear distinction between the units of the armies, I would have no issues with the colour schemes used.
Worth mentioning - there's a lot of hang-up over Combat Tactics being the central reason for the distinction. Let's not forget:

Numerous Blood Angels rules FAQ'ed to affect only Blood Angel units (Sanguinary Priests, the Sanguinor's bonus Attack etc).
Space Marine replacements for Combat Tactics (Vulkan, Shrike etc)

Cheexsta wrote:

Steve steveson wrote:What the OP is doing is playing with semantics and trying to be clever. The fact remains that a BA force cannot take a stormtallon. An allied C:SM force can, and you can call them Blood Angels, and paint them red, but they are still a C:SM force. People are mixing fluff with crunch to try and be clever and it is just a little silly. I can paint a Dredknight red and take some GK allies, but that dose not make it a BA Dredknight.

That's a bit harsh; I think it's actually a pretty cool idea, personally. In fact, I'd be totally fine with your "BA Dreadknight" if you came up with some cool fluff for it (and, like the Talon, you had some method of differentiating your primary detachment from your allied detachment). That's the kind of creativity that really sets this game apart from others, IMHO.

Ofcourse they can take a Red Dreadknight. I'm not suggesting that you can't take whatever you want as allies. If you come up with fluff to work it in, all the better.

However this is YMDC and as such is about rules, not what color paint you use or what fluff you make up, and in the rules you cannot have a BA Stormtalon, or BA Dreadknight, only one as allies.

HoverBoy wrote:

Purifier wrote:That, to be quite honest, is their problem.

Indeed having their cranium stuck up their rectum, is their problem.

lol

Only on Dakka do you have such a gigantic contingent of players vilifying WAAC opponents who do things like model for advantage, but as soon as the shoe is on the other foot and a fluff-ily painted army becomes a tactical advantage...

People are going to have to be VERY clear with allies.

As an ork I can take Dredbash as an ally, which means now I can potentially take 2 warbosses + Big Mek in a 1999 list because my Mek can be from my allied force.

The main drawback is My mek will only be able to ride in transports from his detachment which is pretty huge impact for ork players especially since dredbash gets minimal battlewagons. As a transport-heavy ork army plays a game... it is going to be hell on earth for my opponent to keep track of which units are allies and which units can ride in which transports.

If my attitude was 'That, to be quite honest, is their problem.' that would make me a huge jerk as as the ork player even *I* would probably lose track and try to put my Big Mek in my main force battlewagon.

For cross-codex allies, there will be very strong visual cues but for armies like SM allying with SM or IG/Ork allying with FW lists... it is going to be *VERY* hard as I could take two of the exact same HQ in my core and allied force and need valid ways to distinguish. While it may be easy to determine that BA dredknight is a GK ally, it may not be so easy to distinguishother models as allies, especially a tactical squad for an allied stormtalon.

Indeed, while you can make it easy to tell certain units apart even from space marine codices, your opponent may have trouble distinguishing a grey hunter from a tacticle marine, or even harder a BA from C:SM tacticle marine. This may throw his game plan off. Especially if there were painted very similarly.

I would happily remind my opponent at the start of their turn what is what. It is the same really as showing which unit has failed it's red thirst rolls.

Ostrakon wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:

Purifier wrote:That, to be quite honest, is their problem.

Indeed having their cranium stuck up their rectum, is their problem.

lol

Only on Dakka do you have such a gigantic contingent of players vilifying WAAC opponents who do things like model for advantage, but as soon as the shoe is on the other foot and a fluff-ily painted army becomes a tactical advantage...

I don't play marines really, i do however enjoy converting the most of the whole hobby.

Take a unit of Scouts as your allied Troops choice and don't take any in your primary detachment. Problem solved.